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Iraq
May 21, 2004 1:37:41 GMT
Post by Adey on May 21, 2004 1:37:41 GMT
Leaving aside your own personal views on the rights and wrongs of the Iraq war, are we Westerners now eternally damned in Arabic eyes for the obsceneties practiced by the truly revolting Private Lynndie England and her bunch of cohorts?
WTF was she (they) thinking?
At a stroke the West has lost all moral authority in Iraq, and the fires of Jihad have been stoked. She has made bigger targets of her comrades doing their best to promote an honourable war and our relations with the Arab world have probably been set back a generation.
Any thoughts?
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Iraq
May 21, 2004 2:10:17 GMT
Post by Al Truest on May 21, 2004 2:10:17 GMT
..... are we Westerners now eternally damned in Arabic eyes for the obsceneties practiced by the truly revolting Private Lynndie England and her bunch of cohorts? It is a war of worlds. She, no doubt, made it more complex; but don't think for a minute that this is all her idea. The people we are fighting hated us before, including the decadence that can rear it's head in a free society, as demonstrated by these actions and tactics. Her deeds give fodder to the fence sitters. But where is the equal outrage of the beheading of Daniel Pearl, and most recently Berg. Militants and terrorists wanted us dead before these incidents. That won't change. Winning the diplomatic and political battle is maybe more in jeopardy now. You know that the fundamentalist insurgants are horrified that a Western woman weilds that kind of power. That is a truly preceived threat to the foundations of the male dominated Iraqi society. Our interogators know this. Hell, Blair and Bush may know it. (I hope not) War is ugly. This could all be a calculated move. The world we are fighting is more than just a generation behind....try a few hundred years. Again where is the outrage at acid being splashed on a woman's face for being seen in public. Where is the outrage at women not being able to vote or have certain jobs? The past killing and raping of Iraq women and the torture and mass murder of political opponents is being overshadowed by these scurlious acts of poor judgement. But, politics and perception still rule the day. We still want their oil so we can drive big cars and watch our women be depraved. (please don't misconstrue my irony here) That being said, our freedom and rule of law still prevails in the moral authority conflict.
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Iraq
May 21, 2004 10:12:04 GMT
Post by Adey on May 21, 2004 10:12:04 GMT
Good response AT.
I'm not of course trying to suggest that the fundalmentalists and other assorted fanatics are without blame for terrible acts and attrocities. I also entirely accept your assessment of the male dominated Iraqi (read Arabic) Society and similarly abhor their terrible treatment of women, dissenters etc. I might even go as far as to say that in some ways this world may actually be a few thousand years behind (rather than a few hundred).
What I had hoped, was that in some naive way, we were so much better than this. I could just about tolerate a war that was misrepresented to us by our own Governments, provided that the intention was still basically honourable (and to protect Western oil supplies of course). But we are supposed to have the benefits of civilisation and enlightenment on our 'side'. To see the grubby antics of England and others like her, who have clearly left their humanity behind, is profoundly disappointing.
Your point that this ritualistic humiliation by a woman as an interrogative tactic is an interesting one. Also the idea that it may be a deliberate tactic. Is the publication of the photographs a part of this? I can't believe that it is. The peoples of the civilised West were never surely intended to see evidence of these techniques and in this, the tactic has backfired - your own President and my Prime Minister are now effectively destroyed. Whether or not this is a good thing is irrelevant, but no National Leader would commit political suicide in this way.
You're right - war is ugly. And I acknowledge that I sit here safe and sound away from the bullets of the snipers and the bombs of the fanatics, pontificating on the behaviour of Private England, who for all her faults is (was) in the firing line. But I can't stand by and not at least acknowledge that something is very wrong..
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Iraq
May 21, 2004 13:59:09 GMT
Post by Al Truest on May 21, 2004 13:59:09 GMT
....I had hoped, was that in some naive way, we were so much better than this. I could just about tolerate a war that was misrepresented to us by our own Governments, provided that the intention was still basically honourable (and to protect Western oil supplies of course). But we are supposed to have the benefits of civilisation and enlightenment on our 'side'. To see the grubby antics of England and others like her, who have clearly left their humanity behind, is profoundly disappointing. Your point that this ritualistic humiliation by a woman as an interrogative tactic is an interesting one. Also the idea that it may be a deliberate tactic. Is the publication of the photographs a part of this? I can't believe that it is. The peoples of the civilised West were never surely intended to see evidence of these techniques and in this, the tactic has backfired - your own President and my Prime Minister are now effectively destroyed. Whether or not this is a good thing is irrelevant, but no National Leader would commit political suicide in this way. We are better than this. The fact that someone, within our own ranks, could bring this story to our attention without being killed is proof that we have accountability all the way to the top. It would be stupid to commit political suicide by giving at least tacit approval of these methods; but Nixon, for example, recorded all of his illegal activities, and I hazard to say that Bush (George that is )) is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. However, I really doubt and hope that he would not have condoned this. It has happened however, on his and Blair's watch. To prosecute this war, success in policy may dictate desperate measures to be re-elected and finish the job. Desperate men do strange things. Rumsfeld, whom I can't help but admire on some primal level, I suspect did know about all of this. The blame will be placed as low down the chain of command as we will allow by our reactions. For now, 'civilian contractors' are being blamed. This is bullsh!t. If the military is not in charge, then who runs the show? We are responsible. We must show each other and the world that we are better than this. Which by your ability to do so and the security you enjoy in this regard, makes us morally just - in spite of our ugliness. This is not however my endorsement to do whatever we want in the name of our freedom. It must be foremostly for our own protection and secondarily for the rights of Iraqi's. Where are their patriots? Whom among them will shine the light of freedom and justice. They must have their own hero's to blaze the trail. But as long as we must approve or appoint sympathetic puppets to run their affairs, then we will never have their respect.
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