Sven Golly
Moving
"In the night you hide from the madman you're longing to be"
Posts: 800
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Post by Sven Golly on Apr 21, 2004 12:02:27 GMT
I have determined that there is less to argue about here, now that everyone is so well behaved; however, I miss the debate.
So anyone interested in a little controversy, please start something.
I'll start with , what has been one of the most difficult postition for people to agree on, abortion. Please express your views, and we can debate the issues.
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Post by strabley on Apr 21, 2004 14:09:59 GMT
I have determined that there is less to argue about here, now that everyone is so well behaved; however, I miss the debate. So anyone interested in a little controversy, please start something. I'll start with , what has been one of the most difficult postition for people to agree on, abortion. Please express your views, and we can debate the issues. All that arguing was fun for you? Well, I'm glad someone had fun... I thought we were behaving to your liking, and now you're unhappy about THAT?  I used to be shockingly right wing about abortion. I truly believe that a person becomes a person right at conception. I also believe that abortion is a form of murder. I still believe that. Sometimes I'm just not sure if I'm against murder. If a selfish idiot crackhead has her 5th baby, and they are all neglected and crawling around in piles of their own feces (and believe me this happens more than you think) then, yes, her 6th pregnancy should be aborted. As a matter of fact, her first pregnancy should have been. If I was raped and got pregnant, I would get an abortion. This is a topic I've never been sure about what exactly to think. Must be my Catholic upbringing... Having never been pregnant, I really never had to actually face what I would do in said situation. I guess I try not to think about it.  |
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Post by Xanadu on Apr 21, 2004 18:02:18 GMT
Alright, I think we have an arguement here. At no point do I believe that anyone has the right to tell you what you can do with your own body. Extremely left and more than pro-choice. It is incredibly naive to think that anyone will ever rid this culture of abortion. Women have been performing some sort for as long as there have been pregnancies. Society will only force the issue underground and endanger the lives of more women and children. And personally, I think you should have to possess some sort of license in this society to have a child. I have to pass a test to operate a vehicle, but anyone can procreate!  I think most Pro-life activists should concern themselves with the treatment of the children that have been forced into this world without any opportunities or love, and stay out of personal affairs. To give my two cents to the other side.... as a woman.... you know if you're pregnant within 1 month. There is virtually no reason (outside of endangerment to the mother) to have an abortion in the third trimester. That, I'll say, is unnessesarily cruel. But, if my life was in danger late in a preganancy, I choose my life, and so would my spouse. And, if I found myself pregnant and would prefer not to be, I don't believe it's murder. It's a male right wing religious persecution of a woman's sexual rights. There was a time, only about a hundred years ago, where distribution of sexual information to woman was found illegal by the governing men. Women were imprisoned for attempting to educate other women as to how they were even becoming pregnant. Many women barely even understood menstruation. And the last thing a husband wanted was a wife taking the choice of reproduction into her own hands. This is all well referenced a book I have about the last century of sex. Fear of the "puss*y queen" indeed. My bottom line, it's a right to CHOICE, and I govern my own body. I don't intend to offend anyone with my beliefs, and I think everyone is entitled to their's. Sven wanted debate, but I hope we can all remain civilized. I think a woman should CHOOSE what is right with her morals, if that's to continue the pregnancy, so be it. But the options should remain open... |
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Post by Adey on Apr 21, 2004 19:43:25 GMT
Eloquent as ever Xan/Sheila.
I don't think this is shaping up to be particularly controversial Sven, looks like folks know their minds on this and support a liberal view.
For me, abortion means sadness. Sadness that such an act is necessary for a whole raft of reasons. Sadness that the people involved have to deal with the emotional aftermath of their decision. Sadness that certain pressure groups will not baulk even at murder to force their views on the sanctity of life (and go figure that, because I can't). Sadness that certain religeous groups can use their doctrines to force a pregnancy that were best terminated. Sadness for the child that could have been. Sadness for the child forced to live an appalling life - sadness, sadness,sadness.
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Post by Xanadu on Apr 21, 2004 21:32:27 GMT
Eloquent as ever Xan/Sheila. I don't think this is shaping up to be particularly controversial Sven, looks like folks know their minds on this and support a liberal view. For me, abortion means sadness. Thanks Adey, and I completely agree with you. I don't think that the choice to terminate a pregnancy would ever be an easy decision. I know that I would have to live with the choice for the rest of my life, looking at other children, wondering what mine would have been. Isn't that punishment enough for the Pro-Life persecution? I think in many cases it is a difficult, but responsible decision. It shouldn't be used as a form of contraception, however. I suppose I speak from some experience, not personal, but I have known several women with unwanted pregnancies, and seen the various choices and outcomes. It is truly sad that it is even a consideration. In an ideal situation, only those who wanted and could raise a child would be able to conceive. The extremely religious would then defer to abstinence as an option. Basically, if sex was only to be used for procreation and not entertainment or pleasure, then why would it have been created as so enticing? Why is the act not similar to other natural functions, like sleeping, eating, urinating, where there is no particular state of fulfillment? But, this is the idea in a utopia, whereas in our culture, unwanted pregancies are a daily occurance. Why not provide more education about and availability of contraceptive devices? Now, here's where you touch on the reality of the situation.... Pregnancy and STDs are still considered a punishment for the enjoyment of sex. We have progressed, but not that much. This is where the pendulum swings, like I mentioned in a previous post, I think concerning The Passion of Mad Max. My theory is that as we pursue a more open society, there grows a fear and a drive to return to the past. We open the proverbial Pandora's Box only a little, and fear for the future, but it is too late. You can't erase the knowledge and exposure. And whoever holds the reigns of society at the moment will try, and it will be terrible for a time, until we see the necessity for new progressive laws and interpretations. You can apply this to many progressive movements, particularly in the US, over the last 2 centuries. Another specific example is the legalization of marijuana for medical purposes in California. Under the administration of Clinton, this was passed into state law, but not recognized federally. This was a contradiction in law, but the federal agents did not pursue it until recently, under new administation. Hundreds of sick and suffering are being charged, where under state law, they are legal. This is a problem with state versus federal law, not the individual. You see, the right wing fears the future and wants to undue the ruling that was progressive for this society. |
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Sven Golly
Moving
"In the night you hide from the madman you're longing to be"
Posts: 800
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Post by Sven Golly on Apr 22, 2004 1:12:36 GMT
All that arguing was fun for you? Well, I'm glad someone had fun... I thought we were behaving to your liking, and now you're unhappy about THAT? Don't misunderstand me, I love the fact that we are all on the same wave-length about so much more now; but, no pain no gain. Remember the pig wallowing in the mud comment? I thought you knew the confrontational side of me. But; I do hope you notice that just as things settled down, a bit of boredom set in ( only 2 posts yesterday ) And now - today - a good flurry of stimulating posts. I pulled out the life and death emotions of abortion to draw out some great thoughtful responses. A little sin and human rights just for good measure.  ........ You know I love all you guys. Don't hate me for being beautiful.  You bring up Catholicism, how can the Vatican assume birth control is a sin. Are we to believe that every expression of marital love that culminates in intercourse is a choice to impregnate the female. Moreover, how can every pregnancy produce a viable outlook for either parent or child. I'm hearing truth on both sides, but Zan is closest to my opinion. That life should be cherished, but the right to responsibly choose, I believed is basic and fundamental. Surely we must agree that a third tri-mester fetus is a living human in the making, at least on some level. ( even the most die hard Pro-Choicer would admit this in their heart of hearts ) They are just so afraid to give any quarter. Conversely, the most right winged Pro-Lifer can distinguish between a zygote and a fetus. The fear of sin and the guilt of hindsight has weight on both sides of this coin. Is it fair to force women to carry every pregancy to term..... NO. Is it unfair to ask women to make their decision before insulting half of societies sensibilities... NO. Responsibility and education should be at the root of compassion and understanding here. There is inexoriable guilt associated with giving up a full term child for adoption. There is equal guilt associated with aborting a nearly human fetus. Distinctions must be made. Religous teaching can be the guide for those who have strong convictions for themselves. However, the laws of society must protect the rights of all parties. Trust me, it must come down to specificity and responsibility. |
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Post by Al Truest on Apr 22, 2004 2:06:09 GMT
Eloquent as ever Xan/Sheila. I don't think this is shaping up to be particularly controversial Sven, looks like folks know their minds on this and support a liberal view. For me, abortion means sadness. Sadness that such an act is necessary for a whole raft of reasons. Sadness that the people involved have to deal with the emotional aftermath of their decision. Sadness that certain pressure groups will not baulk even at murder to force their views on the sanctity of life (and go figure that, because I can't). Sadness that certain religeous groups can use their doctrines to force a pregnancy that were best terminated. Sadness for the child that could have been. Sadness for the child forced to live an appalling life - sadness, sadness,sadness. I agree with this only to an extent, Adey. And BTW, I hope that this issue will always be somewhat controversial, because once you make up your mind, you've essentially closed it. This is my point about sadness. To be sure, grief and despair must be addressed as a reality here; but when emotion rules the day, then reason is set aside. Zan is right when she says that the culture of abortion is here to stay. However, being pro-choice is not necessarily a 'liberal view' - Libertarian maybe; but conserving resources for the individuals that we plan or decide to make the requiste commitment to is not a 'liberal' idea. Liberals would have the government provide benefits to any mother who wanted to have births for bucks. I agree almost 100% with Sven on this one. |
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Post by Xanadu on Apr 22, 2004 18:24:56 GMT
However, being pro-choice is not necessarily a 'liberal view' - Libertarian maybe; but conserving resources for the individuals that we plan or decide to make the requiste commitment to is not a 'liberal' idea. Liberals would have the government provide benefits to any mother who wanted to have births for bucks. I see your point and I hadn't looked at it that way before. Isn't it funny how when really analyzed, most systems of government can swing so far to one side, they'll come out on the other...  I guess everything is cyclical. Move further than 180 from a point and you'll get closer to the other side. ;D |
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Post by Xanadu on Apr 22, 2004 18:27:03 GMT
Get this, after I posted the above... there was an add for abortion essays at the top of the screen. I hate when I am being used for marketing in such an obvious way.  |
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Post by Xanadu on Apr 22, 2004 18:28:21 GMT
Now there's an add that posts : Considering Adoption? !!!!  Stop it! It's really irritating, I can understand all the Kate Bush advertising, but come on... |
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........ You know I love all you guys. Don't hate me for being beautiful. 
I guess everything is cyclical. Move further than 180 from a point and you'll get closer to the other side. ;D 