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Post by Adey on Mar 8, 2004 10:37:29 GMT
LOL No! Just putting my thoughts in order - I'm prone to gaps in logic if I go off half cocked.
Look for something in the next 2 days..
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Post by Al Truest on Mar 8, 2004 13:52:16 GMT
Jeez, Adey you're taking this seriously. I love it!
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Post by Adey on Mar 10, 2004 2:41:23 GMT
Hmm, after all that thinking I'm not now sure if I have much to add. Also, the thread has developed and there's a lot of ground to cover.
Just a few more thoughts based on what we've all said here -
I'm somewhat handicapped about the details of the Gibson " Passion " film. Clearly it has been something of an issue for you folks in the States. In the UK, it seems to have barely raised an eyebrow. I said that I would consider seeing the film, but it wouldn't be for the value of it's historical accuracy. And no Al, I wouldn't dream of getting my history from a movie! I would see the film because someone is taking a chance, in this case Gibson, with his reputation and his cash by all accounts (no pun intended). I understand it's doing well. I'll support most things that break the mould especially in the ultra-conservative world of Hollywood - or is the film independent? I won't be looking for history, but I might be looking for the truth about the barbarity of Roman punishments, and the true horror of crucifiction. As I've said before, I think history should be respected, but like Xan looking for the grey in the black and white of storytelling, I'm quite happy to see it challenged. If only for the value of confirmation, or to weigh the evidence supporting a re-interpretation.
In many respects, this whole apparent broo-ha-ha, puts me in mind of the controversy stirred up by the Monty Python, Life of Brian film. Now that really got a reaction in the UK I promise you. Bless you Xan, you're not old enough to remember what it was like, assuming it got the same reaction in the US. Suffice to say it really did upset a lot of people. Ever see a priest shouting at interviewers on the television? I was fascinated.
I recently acquired and read the gospel of St Thomas, which is actually banned by the Catholic church! I did this after watching and thoroughly enjoying the film Stigmata from a couple of years back. If you dont know, Thomas promoted the view that an organised church and its buildings were just not a pre-requisite to worshipping God. " Lift a rock, and I am there.. " You can see why it upset the Vatican. Make the temple in your heart, is the message. So no, I won't be looking for my history in religion either. Nor in the great Hollywood biblical blockbusters beloved by Xan, myself and gazillions of other folk.
I hadn't heard about the tacky ' religious ' souvenirs being churned out to support the Gibson film - I agree, most distasteful.
And so finally, Art. AT you find it acceptable for artists to take liberties with history, through the use of artistic license, and presumably support the freedom of artists to make the statements they wish to make. Well, no surprise, I don't have a problem with that either. I do object enormously to it being represented as History, when it can damage and demean innocent people. Art is the great flower of the human condition and it's people. Of course it is so precious and should be encouraged. It marks us as more than just instinctive animals. Great art makes us richer and greater and ultimately better people. But lets never let it be seen as History...
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Post by Al Truest on Mar 10, 2004 3:35:08 GMT
I'm somewhat handicapped about the details of the Gibson " Passion " film. Clearly it has been something of an issue for you folks in the States. In the UK, it seems to have barely raised an eyebrow. It is worth noting that the some of the controversy - even within this thread is based on speculation and heresay. None of us here have even seen it yet. Hollywood is FAR from 'ultra-conservative'. Gibson would have to gamble his own funds and career to have his conservative slant on this story made into this movie. I attended St Thomas Aquinas University for my undergraduate studies. So, I am aware. I am not however Catholic. ( I was raised as a 'United Methodist' but I now defy labels ) but I digress...Not as bad, tho' as the "Pope Soap on a Rope" during a Papal visit to America. Who's history? We weren't there. Who will challenge our notions and make us verify and seek the truth. Sinead O'Conner insists ( reference "Universal Mother" ) that the "Irish Potato Famine" never existed - only that Great Britian exported all the other produce and meats back to England. I'm not saying she's right or wrong - only that the history is disputed.
There are countless cases of government propaganda being sold as history. Artists must push the envelope of our understanding and prejudices.
I don't have a problem with literary devices that convey the 'conceptual' truth, without the support of an 'actual event' I believe the Bible stories indeed contain historical errors and/or these 'devices'. Truth is the goal not always historical fact. Art, take poetry for example, often condenses or distills concepts. History is lengthy and boring sometimes. Art captures the imagination by the brevity of concise thought with an economy of expression.A free society must protect the truth with enlightenment and understanding. I want people held accountable. Discourse and actions ( economic and social prestige or disrepute ) should determine whose 'truth' and 'history' is verifiable. But not by sanction or laws against words and ideas. An idea alone never killed anyone. What you do with information is your responsibility. If you rely on gossip or lies your are still accountable for your actions.
Commiting evil under the sanction of others, as perhaps the Nazi officiers did, does not excuse the offender. However bold or grand the vision, or how evil it may be, it still takes individuals to carry it through. Consequence, with this in mind, can therefore be the most powerful of the forces.
If you wish, I address the power of consequence on the "Universal Code" thread. In a nutshell though this is my universal formula:
Resist evil - reveal truth - find peace. The action and reaction here is captured somewhat by Yin/Yan but, to me the universal formula is represented by the symbol for infinity, The negative force (evil) is constantly pushed and cycled by the positive vibrations we emit (truth) in the center of this storm we find calm (peace) There is turmoil to my left and to my right, but I can see it all from the center. That is where the truth lies. Where we find common ground.
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Post by Al Truest on Mar 10, 2004 23:07:47 GMT
I really wish we could keep this one going.
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Post by Adey on Mar 11, 2004 11:35:24 GMT
I really wish we could keep this one going. Sorry Al, unless I have any sudden insights, I think I'm all posted out on this one. No doubt if anything occurs you'll be the first to know.
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Post by Al Truest on Mar 11, 2004 12:42:33 GMT
Sorry Al, unless I have any sudden insights, I think I'm all posted out on this one. No doubt if anything occurs you'll be the first to know. Thanks Adey. I hope that those who don't post here do actually contemplate and act on these issues.
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Post by Al Truest on Mar 15, 2004 14:12:20 GMT
Has anyone seen "The Passion" yet?
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Post by Xanadu on Mar 20, 2004 21:51:38 GMT
Has anyone seen "The Passion" yet? Nope. But awaiting my yearly viewing of the Last Temptation for Easter. Along with the regularly appointed holiday film. Just watched my new special edition DVD of The Quiet Man for St. Pat's Day. H*ll, I even watch a Scottish film on Burns Night. I try to get into the spirit, but I won't be seeing this on Good Friday. Anyway... I know you'll respond to this Al (always with the last word ;)JK) but I received a flyer in the mail from a local sort of non-denominational Evangelical Christian Church where they are inviting prospective new members to attend a viewing of the film and an 8 PART 4 WEEK discussion about the EDUCATION in this film!!! The gospel according to Mad Max indeed. I'd have scanned it, but I tossed it immediately.
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Post by Al Truest on Mar 20, 2004 22:03:09 GMT
I haven't seen it yet either. 'Don't plan to. As I said, he has a right to his views; but, I just don't care for bloody special effects and his interpretation of the tradition. You may have already heard but it (Passion) is no longer the box office leader this week. A remake of " Dawn of the Dead" took the top spot. A good week for blood and rising from the dead. I won't be seeing that one either. Oh, and I hope this isn't the last word.
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Post by Al Truest on Mar 24, 2004 2:11:45 GMT
I'm posting this here instead of in response to Sven's comments about a balance in content. I hope that we will continue to express more than just finding certain words and lyrics. Trivia and word games are fun for sure But more than just breaking down the words, I hope we continue to express how those words relate to our lives.
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Post by Adey on Mar 24, 2004 2:56:49 GMT
The Passion has just been released in the UK. I genuinely don't know whether or not to go and see it..
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Post by brillo69 on Mar 25, 2004 5:45:25 GMT
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Sven Golly
Moving
"In the night you hide from the madman you're longing to be"
Posts: 800
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Post by Sven Golly on Mar 26, 2004 1:09:06 GMT
There has been plans to rerelease Monty Python's Life of Brian" You mean we-wewease.
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Post by Al Truest on Apr 13, 2004 0:07:58 GMT
After watching a newsmagazine segment last night; I felt compelled to share my horror at the prospects that were the theme of this program. The fasted growing religion in the world, and already at one-half billion members, is the Penecostal Church - the church of Jimmy Swaggert and Jim/Tammy Faye Baker - the Church of speaking in tongues and possesion by the 'spirit'.
Not only is this church growing at an exponential rate, the other Christian faith's are following suit - save the Methodist and Unitarian (not even really 100% Christian), with the embracing of "Charismatic" practices. They have calculated in doing so, I'm afraid. The traditional churches, especially the Catholic Church, are losing members at an alarming rate.
My fear is that the fervor and fundamentally conservative tide that Zan was trying to sound the alarm about, is indeed happening. Dynamic charletons and charismatic leaders are manipulating the masses with music and emotional stimuli. I'm not saying that being filled with the spirit is a bad thing necessarily; but when radically orchestrated and demonstrative exhibitions of faith become the norm, God help us all. I'm sorry but when you blubber and shake in front of me, I lose all respect for you. Do that in private. I'm content to shed a tear or have the hair on my neck stand up, but I need not grandstand or become part of a mob mentality. A mob can never represent the true feelings of all it's members.
Religion, and it's practice should be a deeply personal experience. From what I know about the Bible, the act of prayer and worship is not supposed to be a public endeveor.
This carnival showboating upset me very deeply. I was reminded of the flogging and self-mutilation that fundamentalist Muslims practice. Snake handlers and holy-rollers are in this same vein. When emotion rules the day then reason takes a back seat. How far will you have to go to 'prove' your faith.
If the intellectual and artistic community does not wake up, we will all be singing "Onward Christian Soldiers" else be sanctioned or persecuted. Am I over-reacting here?!
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