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Post by Al Truest on Mar 5, 2004 2:34:02 GMT
This is a magnificent sentiment, beautifully expressed Thanks Adey! I love this thread.
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Post by Adey on Mar 5, 2004 2:52:49 GMT
My turn to disagree!
History has an important function; to record a set of facts (assuming everyone can agree with them). In this, there is no room for poetic license or invention and artifice. Illustrate that history by all means, but don't f**k with it - otherwise there is no right to call it history.
The words " Inspired By " should almost be a legal requirement.
(Interesting thing about history - the official version is usually always defined by the victor... )
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Post by Al Truest on Mar 5, 2004 3:10:45 GMT
My turn to disagree! History has an important function; to record a set of facts (assuming everyone can agree with them). In this, there is no room for poetic license or invention and artifice. Illustrate that history by all means, but don't f**k with it - otherwise there is no right to call it history. The words " Inspired By " should almost be a legal requirement. It's great to disagree. I'm so glad we have that freedom. But again, Art is NOT subject to anyone's approval. Who is going to decide? What interpretation of the facts will everyone agree on? The price of freedon is to allow trash to co-exist with awe inspiring beauty. Neo-Nazis depict the holocaust as a fabrication or at least a gross exageration. You and I know this to be corrupt and totally untrue. The hate and ignorance in the hearts of those who are whipped into a frenzy by Gibson's movie had it there when they entered the theatre. We are better off for having the discussion. I am more resolute to defend the filmakers right to have his opinion, even if I think his motives are evil. * parenthetically - I really don't think that they are. I just think he has an invalid view of both the historical and theological versions of the tradition. I think he truly believe's in his vision as truth. I also think that you can find truth here if you want to. Love finds beauty within the profane. There, you've just helped reinforce my point.
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Post by Adey on Mar 5, 2004 10:57:26 GMT
I think that it is less easy in the field of filmaking or similar endeavours when the purpose is the telling of history. Clearly the Director and maybe the Producers have a greater impact than the lead actor(s). I should say at this point that I know nothing of Gibson's film and that the controversy has passed me by - was Gibson the director as well? After working through this thread and closing my session on the Board, I noticed an article about the film on my internet browser home page. It seems that much of the controversy surrounds the depicted violence of the scourging and the crucifiction, rather than concern at it's historical accuracy. It seems that Gibson has gone out on a limb to create something in which he believes. On this basis, I would be happy to see the film.
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Post by Al Truest on Mar 5, 2004 13:28:39 GMT
After working through this thread and closing my session on the Board, Is this your last word here? I hope not. We have an important discussion going. There is nonetheless dispute about the historical depiction in his movie, not to mention that we were speaking generally about accuracy in historic films as well. Mr Gibson uses the versions of the Gospels that fit his purposes it seems. I believe it is the Book of John (Biblical Scholars, correct if I am wrong) that varies in the account of Herrod "washing his hands" of the situation. This depiction and the blame for the crucifixation being assumed more at the behest of the Jews than the Romans, is the main objection to the history and tradition of the story. So the historical accuracy has more than one interpretation. But what if the history is wrong. What if the scribes of oral tradition, whom actually only recorded the stories long after they had happened, had their own agenda. That being said, the story is worth seeing and hearing. I will reiterate, you can still find truth here if you look for it. The truth that man can be cruel - that love and forgiveness will rise up over tyranny - that a powerful message can live forever. The truth shall set you free. Look for it.
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Post by Al Truest on Mar 5, 2004 14:19:21 GMT
My previous message may have been offensive or dismissive to those with deeply held religious beliefs. I won't apologize for my own beliefs, but I do respect your right to believe as you wish.
The point I try to make is that the truth, to me is not in the details. If Jesus' body had been stolen by his disciples, it would make no difference to me. The truth is that this man touched people enough that they put their faith in him for the right reasons. Whether he fed thousands by a miracle of the loaves and fishes, or he just had the charisma and exemplary life that persuaded people to share (in this case symbolic food hidden away) what was so selfishly held deep in their robes (hearts), is the beauty of the bible stories especially in the New Testament. You can take them literally or figuratively.
The problems arise when men make their history infallible. The God of the Old Testament seemed more venegeful than in the New Testament. Did God or Truth change, or only our progressive understanding about the nature of man an the order of civilized society. Are we going to lock our perceptions of truth in books from ancient times, or will we continue to let artists and thinkers shape our thoughts and dreams? Truth is there whether you are a Christian or not. You just have to look for it.
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Post by Xanadu on Mar 5, 2004 19:12:43 GMT
It seems that Gibson has gone out on a limb to create something in which he believes. On this basis, I would be happy to see the film. On the other hand, you couldn't pay me to watch it. However, I will lay down good cash to purchase the DVD of The Last Temptation of Christ, so this isn't a religious film aversion. I also own Ben-Hur, The Ten Commandments, King of Kings, Greatest Story Ever Told, etc. I'll come back with more response later, and this is a fascinating thread. I'm afraid this may be the first time I'll disagree with Al Truest and I was with you Adey until this. I am very cynical when it comes to the intentions of a Hollywood director. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Society so easily hands over their mind and heart to so-called "artists." I believe many use the moniker of "art" and "freedom of speech" to sell something that really has a more sinister angle. I'm sure the Germans in the early 30's didn't believe they were being manipulated either... at first. I think it is naive to trust in the artistic "good" intentions of anyone. And although I'll give you that the interpretation usually lies in the tale of the victor, it's my search to find the "grey" in every tale I have interest in throughout history. Historical license is one thing, but religion is another. Let's put the proverbial "shoe" on the other faith, and assume this film was not made by Hollywood in Christian America. Would the violence be accepted? How about the truth? Let's say that Christians were responsible the torture and death of a beloved Muslim. I wonder how Bible-banging Christians would interpret that. I hate no talent hacks (not necessarily anyone in mind) hiding behind art as a reason to do anything outrageous or controversial, in an attempt to persuade me of their agenda. I can smell it on them, and it makes me sick. I guess it's my marketing industry training at work. The idealistic side of me, as wary as she may be, wants to agree with you Al. I understand what you say and you are right. That's as it should be, but unfortunately not necessarily the reality.
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Post by Al Truest on Mar 5, 2004 22:43:32 GMT
On the other hand, you couldn't pay me to watch it. However, I will lay down good cash to purchase the DVD of The Last Temptation of Christ, so this isn't a religious film aversion. I also own Ben-Hur, The Ten Commandments, King of Kings, Greatest Story Ever Told, etc. I'll come back with more response later, and this is a fascinating thread. I'm afraid this may be the first time I'll disagree with Al Truest and I was with you Adey until this. This thread is really helpful to me. I would not expect everyone to agree with my position. But it is healthy and necessary for people to have these discussions. Who do you want wielding the power? What punishment is due those who take liberties with the 'facts'? I would rather artists, and even hacks disguised as artists, have their say. The sheep of 'Society' will always be manipulated. Those with agendas will vie for their vote. The real artists and thinkers must be the watchdogs. Because if government ever has power over your thoughts and expression, then you're really in trouble. Can you imagine being afraid to post what you thought here? What if you got your dates or details wrong? Would it be OK to give you a weekend in jail? Our system is flawed. But we do have checks and balances. Oh, I'm not saying to trust anyone's intentions - Artists' or governments'. Lies and propaganda should be met with outrage. If something sickens you, you must rail against it. We vote with our actions. Good and evil co-exist in the hearts of man. You can find the best in people if you look for it. You see that's why I refer to God and religion as Love or Truth. The only thing true about these sects are the principles they hold in common. Your disdain and contempt for their actions need not extend to them as people. I'll wager that you can find good and common ground with almost anyone (granted, if you want me dead, I might have a problem reaching out to you). Jesus mingled with prostitutes and lepers. You however, won't see the 'congregation' down at the gay bath houses trying to save souls. So it's not the message it's the messengers. This is a good thing, to be able to resist their manipulation. But silencing them or worse does not promote freedom or equality. Who judges talent anyway? Surely you don't want government doing that. Reality is what you make of it. Of course that (freedom of expression) is as it should be. Liberty, justice, dreams, and the pursuit of happiness are rights we've fought to earn. Let's not give them away just because people excercise a few of them. I can put up with the 'Klan' or 'Nascar Dads', because I have faith that there is more good than evil out there. The KKK is a joke, because their message does not resonate. The right wing or (overly simplfied as 'NCD's) are met with an equal backlash of liberal thought. The truth comes from the hearing of all sides and finding success from the revelations. I maintain that we are only exploring these issues because we can. We disagree on points, but we'll be able to sleep at night knowing that we won't be threatened or punished for the way we express ourselves.
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Post by Xanadu on Mar 6, 2004 0:04:38 GMT
Al, as much as I am enjoying this thread, I am feeling a bit frustrated since I don't believe my thoughts are coming across in these posts. Now, if I had your ear all day (say, like at work) we could really get somewhere.
I am an artist and a liberal. I agree with all that you are saying. I'd never want the government or anyone else for that matter telling me what to think or say or do. I believe they should have the right to interpret and present as they wish. The idealist in me only wishes that their intentions were altruistic in nature, which you can appreciate. But, as I said about absolute power. I'm not discussing the freedom of speech here, just Gibson's and others like him not being aware of their power to influence... or are they?
This is where the religious aspect of my arguement come in. Personally, I like well researched films that are entertaining and accurate, however for the masses, that's not usually that entertaining. In the sense of Adey's mention of Titanic (actually a bit of a buff myself too) I felt the same outrage as he did. But I know better and it's just a film, fictionalized for the main story. It's actually called "historical fiction" of which I have enjoyed many films and novels.
I fear this new Evangelical Christian phase I feel all around me. His intentions are not faithful or pure. He's selling pewter and leather necklaces representing the nails driven into Jesus' hands! But many are supporting this film like it's Gospel. What I fear is that in this Christian revolution (the pendulum swings yet again... but that's for another thread some other time) and we vote in the religious right wing due to masses looking for some savior of their souls. I have nothing but respect for those who are actually religious, but keep it in your backyard. Don't "save" me, or tell me what to think. Do you see the pattern Al. The very sheep you discuss, look for leaders, vote for them, and then take away the very voice you hold precious.
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Post by Al Truest on Mar 6, 2004 2:05:35 GMT
Al, as much as I am enjoying this thread, I am feeling a bit frustrated since I don't believe my thoughts are coming across in these posts. Now, if I had your ear all day (say, like at work) we could really get somewhere. Now that would be fun. ;D Everyone with a message wants to get someone else to do something. This is a central theme that started this thread in the Gurdjieff article. What else can we do but but understand what we see and hear. How can we know of the impending dangers, if we don't listen? True enlightenment can only come from comprehending the variables of reason and emotion and how the consequences impact our lives. Your higher consciousness will insulate you from fear and loathing. I feel it too. I listen to 10 minutes a day each of Glen Beck - Rush Limbaugh - and Sean Hannity. This, I know is propaganda and mostly garbage. Especially Limbaugh. What a pompous ogre! Yet, even though I disagree with Hannity and Beck most of the time, they do point out things I would not examine about the other extreme. These two actually believe in what they are saying. How can I not allow them their voice? But, your point has finally gotten through to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the right swing in the fundamentalist Christian segment will try and strip away our civil liberties? Supreme Court Judge appointments, constitutional amendants and so on...I see that point and understand the concern. But I still have faith that enough democrats, libertarians etc AND some constitutionally loyal republicans, will never let our rights be stripped away. Call me naive but I really believe what I say here. If you read all my philosophical posts, they are consistent. They are more optimistic than the Gurdjieff warnings. But the peace and calm that I enjoy assures me that I have found a level of truth that will sustain me.
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Post by Adey on Mar 6, 2004 2:50:55 GMT
I do have more to say - don't go without me!
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Post by Al Truest on Mar 6, 2004 2:57:52 GMT
I do have more to say - don't go without me! I look foward to it! I would challenge anyone to find more stimulating and thought provoking threads than this one, "The Universal Code" and "Ghosts - Your Views"
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Post by Al Truest on Mar 7, 2004 9:55:33 GMT
I do have more to say - don't go without me! I'm waiting....
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Post by Adey on Mar 7, 2004 15:39:30 GMT
I'm thinking....
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Post by Al Truest on Mar 8, 2004 3:36:26 GMT
I'm thinking.... That Al is right?
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