Adena
Moving
This time around we dance - we're chosen ones
Posts: 611
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Post by Adena on May 18, 2008 10:21:16 GMT
It made me cry the first time I heard it, actually. I guess it makes me realize how far I've come in five years, and how much I left behind. Those moments under the ivy, as I shall say, were my sanctuary from a know-it-all eleven-year old sister who was pretty unstable, a father who was nasty and a mother who I hardly ever saw. My life was certainly a very noisy party, and the sanctuary did good.
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Post by tannis on May 21, 2008 18:02:59 GMT
Go into the garden Go under the ivy Under the leaves Away from the party Go right to the rose Go right to the white rose...
Ivy - Immortality, Friendship, Faithfulness.
Because it is an evergreen that clings while climbing, it signifies the need for protection. Since it grows quickly, it also symbolizes regeneration, sensuality and revelry. The Greco-Roman god Dionysus, or Bacchus, had an ivy cup and wore a crown of ivy leaves. As a symbol of immortality, it provides hope of salvation and deliverance. In Frances Hodgson Burnett's The Secret Garden, the garden door is hidden under the ivy.
Ivy was often used to symbolise the notion of gendered spheres for men and women in the Victorian period, where the ivy (woman) needs the sturdy oak (man) for support. This idea derives from Christian doctrine, as does the association of ivy (an evergreen plant) with the notion of resurrection. Ivy also has associations with melancholy and decay; the image of ivy covered ruins was a popular motif of the Romantic movement.
Of course, Kate enjoys spelling puns on her name (Kate Bosch [NFE], BaBUSHka, the Pull of THE BUSH, etc). And 'Under the Ivy' is another example of Bush Topiary...
UNDER the ivy bush One sits sighing, And under the willow tree One sits crying. —
Under the ivy bush Cease from your sighing, But under the willow tree Lie down a-dying.
~ Christina Rossetti
White Roses - Purity, Innocence, Sympathy, Spirituality
With its pristine appearance, the white rose has come to symbolize purity, innocence and secrecy. Early traditions also used white roses as a symbol for true love, an association which would later become the hallmark of the red rose. However, white roses continue to endure and retain their symbolism of innocence.
Also known as the bridal rose, the white rose is a traditional wedding flower. In this sense, they are a representation of unity, virtue, young love, and the pureness of a new bond of love. White roses are also associated with honor and reverence, which makes them a fitting memorial for a departed loved one. As a symbol of remembrance, the white rose represents heavenliness and is an expression of spiritual love and respect.
White roses have been symbols of reverence and humility ever since Medieval Christian Europe. In those times, Mary was often represented by a white rose to represent her purity. In Wales, white roses are seen to mean innocence and silence, and are often placed on the grave of a young child. Meanwhile, some native American cultures see the white rose as representing security and happiness, so this is why they are traditionally worn at weddings.
In Cocteau's La Belle et la Bête, the white rose is symbolic of the Beast's inner character. Cocteau reinterprets Villeneuve's story and theme of love's power to redeem ugliness. He uses the white rose as a symbol of love and purity. The Beast may appear to be a hideous creature, but on the inside he is a loving and caring person. And of course, in La Belle et la Bête, the father goes into the garden, under the ivy, under the leaves, away from the party, right to the rose, right to the white rose and picks one of the white roses for his daughter.
The White Rose was a non-violent resistance group in Nazi Germany that called for active opposition to Hitler's regime. The group's first pamphlet decried the horrors of the T4 'euthanasia' programme. The six core members of the group were arrested by the Gestapo, convicted and executed 1943. The symbol of the white rose was intended to represent purity and innocence in the face of evil. A 2003 German poll, "the ten greatest Germans of all time", placed Hans and Sophie Scholl of the White Rose fourth place, selecting them over Bach, Goethe, and Albert Einstein.
"Since the conquest of Poland three hundred thousand Jews have been murdered in this country in the most bestial way ... The German people slumber on in their dull, stupid sleep and encourage these fascist criminals ... Each man wants to be exonerated of a guilt of this kind, each one continues on his way with the most placid, the calmest conscience. But he cannot be exonerated; he is guilty, guilty, guilty!" — From the second leaflet of the White Rose.
In the modern occultism of Madeline Montalban (died 1982) Lucifer's identification as the Morning Star (Venus) equates him with Lumiel, whom she regarded as the Archangel of Light, and among Satanists he is seen as The "Torch of Baphomet" and Azazel. In this modern occult teaching, an obvious appropriation of Christian soteriology, it is stated that it is Lucifer's destiny to incarnate in human form at certain key times in world history as a saviour and redeemer for humanity. A symbol for this process is the Tudor Rose. The Tudor Rose can be red, representing Lucifer, or white representing Lilith. The Tau cross is also a symbol of Lumiel/Lucifer and his role as an avatar for the human race.
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Post by tannis on May 21, 2008 19:20:00 GMT
Under the Ivy and Love and Anger
It lay buried here. It lay deep inside me It's so deep I don't think that I can speak about it...
And it's not easy for me To give away a secret It's not safe...
It could take me all of my life But it would only take a moment to Tell you what I'm feeling...
It wouldn't take me long To tell you how to find it...
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Post by rosabelbelieve on May 21, 2008 20:19:25 GMT
^ Thank you for the information on the symbolism of ivy and the white rose. And the connections between Under The Ivy and Love And Anger are really intriguing - they do deal with similar subject matter, but sort of in opposite ways, I think. In Love And Anger the narrator seems to be breaking free of the constricting forms of her old safety, whereas in Under The Ivy she seems to be retreating deeper into her sanctuary. Interesting, though.
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Post by tannis on May 21, 2008 21:40:21 GMT
And the connections between Under The Ivy and Love And Anger are really intriguing - they do deal with similar subject matter, but sort of in opposite ways, I think. In Love And Anger the narrator seems to be breaking free of the constricting forms of her old safety, whereas in Under The Ivy she seems to be retreating deeper into her sanctuary. Interesting, though. 'Our life is basically practically nothing but an infinite number of unfinished situations-incomplete gestalts.' writes Perls. 'No sooner have we finished one situation than another comes up' (1969/1971:15). The neurotic 'individual somehow interrupts the ongoing processes of life and saddles himself with so many unfinished situations that he cannot satisfactorily get on with the process of living' (1973:23). The basis of gestalt therapy is looking at the moment - the whole moment and nothing but the moment. Gestalt therapy seeks to free the "dammed-up psychological process" so that it flows naturally... to Run Wild, Run Free...L&A opens like a Gestalt counselling session, that is interrupted by the entry of a loved one (real or imagined). The narrator cannot confide in a sister (because she hasn't got one?) and cannot confide in a priest. The institution of confession permits all to be said, but the narrator seems mute. Indeed, the album cover to TSW shows Kate's mouth concealed by a flower and in the Aerial photograph to 'Joanni', Kate's mouth has disappeared. ... In L&A, her muteness leads her to explore other philosophies of freedom. These seem to include Buddhist principles of rebirth and karma: "Karma, meaning action-reaction, governs all existence, and man is the sole creator of his circumstances and his reaction to them, his future condition, and his final destiny. By right thought and action he can gradually purify his inner nature, and so by self-realization attain in time liberation from rebirth. The process covers great periods of time, involving life after life on earth, but ultimately every form of life will reach Enlightenment." www.budtempchi.org/12prin.htmlSo, yes, in Love And Anger the narrator seems to be breaking through of personal limitations and "busting through" constricting forms. A 'spiritual cleansing' to let a 'new house' of the future rise up. And I agree that the end of the song is a real triumphant feeling... But in Under The Ivy she seems to be retreating deeper into her sanctuary... This little girl inside me Is retreating to her favourite place...Under The Ivy feels like a dangerous regression, a compulsion to repeat something forbidden. Maybe the noise and pressure of the party get to her and she is tempted by secret love... But will her lover join her? ...
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Post by tannis on Jun 24, 2008 12:10:29 GMT
Here is a condensed version of a very interesting Homeground post... Under The Ivy--as a Tribute to Sophie Scholl, one of the founding members of "The White Rose"... It is a song of secrets, of conspiracy and resistance, trust and confidence... This song reminds us of the tender secrecy and delicate trusts that must be exercised among artists, intellectuals, and freedom-fighters in an oppressive regime, and how delicate and dangerous such acts can be... These first three lines set the tone of the entire song, and their repetition as the last two lines neatly "seals the secret" being transmitted throughout this lyric. The speaker is telling a new confidant that although this is an underground group, they are hiding in plain sight--"It won't take me long to tell you how to find it..." implies that the directions to their meeting place is simple--probably a dorm room, or a simple flat in the city, or perhaps even a meeting room on the University campus... Sophie Scholl was just 20 when she helped found the "White Rose" and a few months shy of her 22nd birthday when she was executed by the Gestapo... She must have "retreated to her favorite place" in her mind many times during each day--when she saw the groups of brown--shirted HJ marching through campus, when she saw anti-semitic propaganda plastered on the walls of buildings, when she heard the radio... The ivy is symbolic of steadfastness, loyalty, and tenacity--obvious traits of an underground resistance movement... The phrase "under the leaves" caries with it the same "underground" reference, and again is referential to ivy via the "leaves", but it is also symbolic of the leaflets that this group published and circulated--they were the people behind (or under) those leaves... The secret meaning of "Away from the party"... reference to the Nazi Party, noting that this group was "away from the Party", or working against them... The word "right" also could be construed as meaning that this group was the antithesis of the wrongs of Nazism--therefore instructing the listener to "go right"... The "thunder" is a none-to-subtle reference to the sounds of warfare... The "green and the grey" may be a reference to the smoke-filled skies after a battle, or it could be a poetic reference to the regular uniforms of the SS.-Verfüg-Truppe, which had greenish jackets and grey slacks. The phrase "I feel it all around me" is a cleverly coded reference to the creeping ubiquity of Nazism... Anyone like Sophie Scholl who was engaged in a resistance movement must have been keenly aware of such tactics, and realised they needed to be secretive, and develop their trusts carefully. The "secret" she is reluctant to "give away" is information about the "White Rose". The phrase "it's not safe" is such a powerful understatement as to seem almost absurd in the context of discussing a Resistance group in Germany during WW2... This song, in the context of this interpretation presents a MUCH more powerful message--one of hope, strength, sacrifice, and the power of Art, Truth, and Intellect to triumph over tyranny... Under The Ivy--a Tribute?thehomegroundandkatebushnewsandinfoforum.yuku.com/topic/15693/t/Under-The-Ivy-a-Tribute.htmlSophia Magdalena Scholl (May 9, 1921 - February 22, 1943) was a member of the White Rose non-violent resistance movement in Nazi Germany. She was convicted of treason after having been found distributing anti-war leaflets at the University of Munich with her brother Hans. As a result, they were both executed by guillotine. Her last words were partially: "Die Sonne scheint noch"—"The sun still shines." while her full comments were: "How can we expect righteousness to prevail when there is hardly anyone willing to give himself up individually to a righteous cause. Such a fine, sunny day, and I have to go. But what does my death matter, if through us thousands of people are awakened and stirred to action?" Since the 1970s, Scholl has been celebrated as one of the great German heroes who actively opposed the Third Reich during the Second World War. (wiki)----- I sit here in the thunder... The same thread also points out that "Kate has previously explained that the 'thunder' was her childhood memory of using the families thunder-box outside toilet." Indeed, 'dunny' [from thunder?] is Australian slang for toilet, especially an outhouse or other outdoor toilet. It is often used to specify a distinction between a flushing toilet and a non-flushing toilet (e.g., a longdrop or thunderbox). KATE: "Although we are often surrounded by people and friends, we are all ultimately alone, and I feel sure everyone feels lonely at some time in their life. I wanted to write about feeling alone, and how having to hide emotions away or being too scared to show love can lead to being lonely as well... There are just some times when you can't cope and you just don't feel you can talk to anyone. I go and find a bathroom, a toilet or an empty room just to sit and let it out and try to put it all together in my mind. Then I go back and face it all again." Kate's KBC article, Issue 12 (Oct 1982), About The Dreaming: 'All the Love' gaffa.org/garden/kate14.htmlEDITH: "Blanche said Sara writes poetry in the dunny! She found one there on the floor all about Miranda." ~ Picnic at Hanging Rock (1975).
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Post by rosabelbelieve on Jun 24, 2008 22:48:26 GMT
I really like this interpretation of Under The Ivy. It does give the song a very powerful message of hope that truth and love and justice will prevail even in the most terrible of circumstances.
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Post by tannis on Jun 24, 2008 23:56:16 GMT
Yes, I agree. The interpretation of UTI, as a struggle of free thinkers against tyranny and oppression, is very powerful. Sophie was imprisoned and interrogated by the Gestapo, and charged with treason. And it is striking how the second verse of UTI expresses such oppression. Sophie Scholl – The Final Daysen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Scholl_%E2%80%93_The_Final_Days
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Post by tannis on Jun 25, 2008 12:55:06 GMT
KB: "One of my favourites is by Millais, The Huguenot..."UTI could also be interpreted in reference to one of Kate's favorite paintings, The Huguenot, which also deals with tyranny and oppression; and which may have inspired The Dreaming album cover. Maybe UTI reflects the moments leading up to the embrace depicted in the painting, with allusions to the symbolic white-scarf and white rose... Millais: "It is a scene supposed to take place (as doubtless it did) on the eve of the massacre of St. Bartholomew's Day. I shall have two lovers in the act of parting... The girl will be endeavouring to tie the handkerchief round the man's arm, so to save him..." The St. Bartholomew's Day massacre was a wave of Catholic mob violence against the Huguenots (French Calvinist Protestants), during the French Wars of Religion. The exact number of fatalities is not known, but it is estimated that anywhere from ten thousand to possibly one-hundred thousand Huguenots died in the violence throughout France. The story was fictionalised by Prosper Mérimée in his Chronique du règne de Charles IX (1829), and by Alexandre Dumas, père in La Reine Margot, an 1845 novel that is accurate as far as the historical facts go but fills in with romance and adventure between them. That novel has been translated into English and was made into a commercially successful French film in 1994 as La Reine Margot, starring Isabelle Adjani. see more: St. Bartholomew's Day massacreen.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew%27s_Day_MassacreKATE BUSH and THE HUGUENOTkatebush.proboards6.com/?board=houndsoflove&action=display&thread=1727&page=1
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Post by tannis on Feb 1, 2009 3:00:53 GMT
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Post by musiclover on Feb 6, 2009 3:31:19 GMT
Wow, so much literary analysis - way beyond my capabilities. I only discovered this song yesterday and it hit me right away with full force. That's the mark of an amazing song.
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Post by tannis on Jun 23, 2009 11:27:40 GMT
I sit here in the thunder, The green on the grey. I feel it all around me. And it's not easy for me To give away a secret-- It's not safe, But go into the garden. Go under the ivy, Under the leaves, Away from the party. Go right to the rose. Go right to the white rose (For me.) It wouldn't take me long To tell you how to find it...
The white rose is a symbol of purity and of the Virgin Mary. Traditionally, the white rose is also a symbol of silence and secrecy. The Latin expression sub rosa («under the rose») referred to keeping sins a secret. The symbol comes from one of the tales of Cupid, who gave Harpocrates, the god of silence, a white rose to bribe him into not repeating what he had seen transpire between Venus and her lovers. For centuries the rose was sculpted into ceilings of banquet halls to remind guests not to repeat what they had seen take place sub rosa.
In The Innocents (1961; KT's The Infant Kiss), the flora at Bly is given as much attention as the fauna, and the flower of choice is decidedly the white rose. White roses can be seen everywhere, both in the garden and in the house, often on a table separating the governess and Mrs. Grose as the former interrogates the latter, and even in front of a dressing mirror, separating the governess from her own image. In addition, we are often shown these flowers losing their petals, such as when we have a close-up of a single white rose petal falling on a Bible, just before the governess hears strange sounds one evening and gets up to investigate. There are two possible explanations for Capote's clear predilection for this motif. Firstly, the white rose is a symbol of purity and of the Virgin Mary, thus stressing both the religious side of the governess's mission and the inadvertent harm she may be bringing to the children's purity. Secondly, the white rose is traditionally a symbol of silence and secrecy, and turning Bly into a white rosary is a way of foregrounding the dark secrets at Bly, the evil acts that are henceforth sub rosa and kept from the inquiring governess.
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Post by tannis on Jul 26, 2009 22:27:43 GMT
KATE airBrUSH
Here are two versions of Kate Bush with Ivy by Clive Arrowsmith. The one on the right is from the cover to Fred Vermorel's "The Secret History of Kate Bush (& the strange art of pop)". The one on the left is available to purchase from Clive Arrowsmith's website for $3000. The strange art of photography! Kate Bush with Ivy by Clive Arrowsmith Medium: Digital Print Material: Fuji Crystal Archive Paper Style: Famous People Portraits Theme: Women Price: US $3000
About This Artwork This was the second image I took of Kate Bush, it took an age to wire all the Ivy up into a frame around her, she was in repose the whole time, patient and very still.
Alternate sizes and prices are available upon request. For more information about this piece or any other piece by photographer Clive Arrowsmith, please contact Brian Walker directly at DiscoveredArtists.com.The High-End Fashion, Celebrity and Landscape Photography of Clive Arrowsmith Clive Arrowsmith is one of Britain's most revered fashion, beauty and portrait photographers. He has photographed many of the most famous celebrities, musicians and social icons of our day, including Paul McCartney, Kate Bush, David Bowie, David Hockney, Richie Havens and well beyond. Not only is Clive Arrowsmith a top fashion photographer, but he is also an extremely accomplished still life and landscape photographer. His photographic images demand top dollar from collectors and art enthusiasts across the world. Below are a wide selection of photographs that are currently for sale in Clive’s gallery on DiscoveredArtists.com.Morphing Kate Bushwww.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt2XML7tS5wset to "Under the Ivy".
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