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Post by Barry SR Gowing on Apr 14, 2008 3:31:43 GMT
^ Thanks for the information, Paul. I'd read the quote about SIG being about a situation similar to being in purgatory, and it's a very good one. I think it fits well into the idea of The Dreaming as a sort of quest for salvation, through realms earthly, psychological, infernal, and heavenly (which is somewhat akin to how I see it. Thanks, Rosa Yes ... I'm trying to work up a theory about the different 'stages' in Kate's songwriting. It's as if she's always on a quest of exploration, and also pushing boundaries and barriers. For example on The Kick Inside she's exploring herself as a woman - since she was quite young when she wrote those songs and so womanhood was a new experience for her; hence songs like Feel It, Strange Phenomena, L'Amour Looks Something Like You etc. By the time of The Dreaming she'd moved on. Exploration of the purely physical was no longer challenging (or even desirable) and so her art had progressed into more spiritual areas (not that she had entirely ignored those areas before). We see further exploration of this kind on Hounds of Love. Her later work has at times returned to a focus on the personal, but now with the perspective of experience (and more recently, motherhood). However, the 'big themes' are still there, although addressed with a calmness and resoluteness that she was yet to develop at the time of The Dreaming. That's my take on it, anyway. I'm not a woman, so it may seem a little presumptuous of me to interpret some of her more ... visceral ... writing (particularly the early stuff). --Paul--
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Post by rosabelbelieve on Jun 5, 2008 16:16:28 GMT
^ You know, I missed this post a while ago, but I think you're really on to something. TKI and Lionheart do seem to focus on the experience of womanhood and sexuality, though I think they are beginning to connect these subjects to more mystical or metaphysical observations ("He has the answer... Om mani padme hum..." and the way Moving connects the physical and the spiritual...) I would add, that between this and The Dreaming, on Never For Ever Kate seems to me to focus a great deal on being an artist, with songs like Delius and Blow Away and even Violin exploring the meaning of artistic creativity. The Dreaming and HOL turn to spiritual matters, and I think The Sensual World and TRS turn to emotional ones. And Aerial seems to synthesise a great deal of it, IMO. I think I'll have to ponder this some more...
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Post by Barry SR Gowing on Jun 6, 2008 10:37:49 GMT
^ You know, I missed this post a while ago, but I think you're really on to something. TKI and Lionheart do seem to focus on the experience of womanhood and sexuality, though I think they are beginning to connect these subjects to more mystical or metaphysical observations ("He has the answer... Om mani padme hum..." and the way Moving connects the physical and the spiritual...) I would add, that between this and The Dreaming, on Never For Ever Kate seems to me to focus a great deal on being an artist, with songs like Delius and Blow Away and even Violin exploring the meaning of artistic creativity. The Dreaming and HOL turn to spiritual matters, and I think The Sensual World and TRS turn to emotional ones. And Aerial seems to synthesise a great deal of it, IMO. I think I'll have to ponder this some more... Yes, that's what I'm thinking rosa. Even on TKI there's a element of the mystical creeping in - certainly on a song like Them Heavy People of course - but also in the song about womanhood, Strange Phenomena, we see Kate connecting femininity to the spiritual world. "Hail the jewel in the lotus" she says, perhaps reflecting her growing realisation that all of this stuff about being a woman has a much deeper significance and connection. Even things that at first just seem physical, like sexuality and monthly cycles, turn out to be part of a process that can also link in to the potential to be a giver of life and a nurturer. Plus there's the mystical link to the moon. In a song such as Feel It, where at first Kate seems to be revelling in the purely physical, I do get the impression that there is more to it. If she'd added lines like "Surrender to the power of my love" and/or "I surrender to the power of your love" or something like that I wouldn't have been at all surprised! When she mentions how sexuality affects her in L'Amour Looks Something Like You she describes it as "And feel all the energy rushing right up-a-me". That sounds fairly close to a tantric description, again linking the sexual into the spiritual. However, I am straying a little far from The Dreaming in my attempts to outline Kate's journey as a songwriter! --Paul--
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Post by rosabelbelieve on Jun 6, 2008 20:50:30 GMT
Yes, that's what I'm thinking rosa. Even on TKI there's a element of the mystical creeping in - certainly on a song like Them Heavy People of course - but also in the song about womanhood, Strange Phenomena, we see Kate connecting femininity to the spiritual world. "Hail the jewel in the lotus" she says, perhaps reflecting her growing realisation that all of this stuff about being a woman has a much deeper significance and connection. Even things that at first just seem physical, like sexuality and monthly cycles, turn out to be part of a process that can also link in to the potential to be a giver of life and a nurturer. Plus there's the mystical link to the moon. Agree very much. It's unusual that a songwriter can connect both the sensual and the metaphysical worlds as much Kate does, and I think that's one of the most striking things about especially her early work. Well, she does say "My passion always wins." That's quite similar, isn't it? It's interesting nonetheless.
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Post by Al Truest on Jun 6, 2008 21:30:14 GMT
^ You know, I missed this post a while ago, but I think you're really on to something. TKI and Lionheart do seem to focus on the experience of womanhood and sexuality, though I think they are beginning to connect these subjects to more mystical or metaphysical observations ("He has the answer... Om mani padme hum..." and the way Moving connects the physical and the spiritual...) I would add, that between this and The Dreaming, on Never For Ever Kate seems to me to focus a great deal on being an artist, with songs like Delius and Blow Away and even Violin exploring the meaning of artistic creativity. The Dreaming and HOL turn to spiritual matters, and I think The Sensual World and TRS turn to emotional ones. And Aerial seems to synthesise a great deal of it, IMO. I think I'll have to ponder this some more... I am intrigued by your train of thought here. There seems to be an evolution from moral disparity and convention pitted against and contrasted by epiphany and awakening in a progression and culmination that is "Aerial". I earlier had remarked that a sub thread of the seven deadly sins seems to weave through the songs in "The Dreaming" The moral dilemmas of these sins are viscerally displayed through exaggerated presentations and guttural renditions of emotion. "Pull Out the Pin" may be the best example (to me) of this outpouring. The more she thinks about sex the better it gets. The root of all reincarnation. So much of what she says stays so remarkably focused on an unfolding understanding of our condition and our destiny. F-ing brilliant!
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Post by rosabelbelieve on Jun 7, 2008 1:46:56 GMT
I am intrigued by your train of thought here. There seems to be an evolution from moral disparity and convention pitted against and contrasted by epiphany and awakening in a progression and culmination that is "Aerial". I earlier had remarked that a sub thread of the seven deadly sins seems to weave through the songs in "The Dreaming" The moral dilemmas of these sins are viscerally displayed through exaggerated presentations and guttural renditions of emotion. "Pull Out the Pin" may be the best example (to me) of this outpouring. I remember reading that. The Dreaming is an album of emotional extremes, and the seven deadly sins have always seemed to me to be excesses and unbalances of qualities that in moderation are healthy. And the moral dilemma of keeping all of these impulses and influences under control (the balance between 'leaving it open' and 'keeping it shut') pervades many of the songs. It's a struggle to come to terms with these overwhelming forces, in one way. Agreed!
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Post by Barry SR Gowing on Jun 7, 2008 9:31:30 GMT
However, I am straying a little far from The Dreaming in my attempts to outline Kate's journey as a songwriter! --Paul-- It's interesting nonetheless. Yes, but I should probably take it over to the TKI section. Although to keep a semblance of relevance to The Dreaming can I just say that the first time I looked at a tracklisting for this album (before I'd heard it, of course) I assumed that Sat In Your Lap was going to be another sex-themed song... --Paul--
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Post by tannis on Jun 16, 2008 7:23:08 GMT
Date: 7 Jul 88 18:35:02 GMT Subject: the video The video for "Suspended in Gaffa" (or at least the version I've seen), was filmed or takes place in what looks like an old barn. I seem to remember some mention months ago about the early demo studio being in a barn or similar building. Coincidence, or was KaTe really trying to communicate with her fans that know everything about her life? You be the judge. [ Notice too, the big "wheels of Katherine"...] Question time: In the same video, during the "I'm scared of the changes" whispering, KaTe turns to an older woman, who takes her in her arms. Is this the Ever Blessed KaTe Mom ("blessed is the fruit of thy womb")?? [ Sure is!...] Date: Tue, 29 Mar 88 18:41 PST Subject: Suspended in Gaffa So if the "setting" of the song, or the general orientation, is more or less autobiographical (it may please some of the Love-Hounds to hear IED accepting this possibility), and, specifically, based on some of Kate's early childhood experiences, then what if "half of a heaven" really is a reference to Kate's own childhood barn out "in the bottom of our garden," the place of the old broken-down organ which was the home of countless mice? I've never been entirely sure about this, but I think that that same old disused barn was later used as one of Kate's early demo studios, where she would have done some of her first musical creations. The Dreaming: The Songs, "Suspended In Gaffa" gaffa.org/dreaming/td_sig.htmlKate Bush - Suspended in Gaffawww.youtube.com/watch?v=5w4y1ekS_LEThe video of Suspended in Gaffa was to be done as simply and quickly as possible; as always with very little time to complete it in, the simpler the better. I saw it as being the return to simplicity, a light-hearted dance routine, no extras, no complicated special effects. [In fact, however, there are many very sophisticated and subtle technical effects in this video, and the production design is very impressive.] As we were all so pleased with the previous sets--put together under the supervision of a very clever man, Steve Hopkins--we asked him to build another, this time an old barn with large gaps in the walls where we could allow the light to streak through. We used a combination of natural and artificial light, and everyone was thrilled with the sense of realism that the set achieved. Steve brought in huge branches of trees that were behind the gaps in the set, and a dedicated helper called "Podge" sat up on a piece of scaffolding for six hours and enthusiastically shook a piece of tree to make the light move and dance as if motivated by a furtive wind. The video did remain uncomplicated--just a few effects and just one extra: but a very special. one. There is one section where a child's voice says, "Mother, where are the angels? I'm scared of the changes." And there was only one person that could be addressed to--my mother. When I asked her to appear in the section, contrary to my concern about her nerves, she was more than obliging and said, "Yes." She was definitely the star of the day, and waited patiently hour after hour as we slowly moved through the bulk of the shooting to eventually reach her debut. I was amazed at her grace and stamina: as all of us began to wane and wilt, my mother continued to blossom and glow, and her only worries were getting back home in time to get dinner and hoping she would not succumb to an attack of giggles during the vital moments of being on screen. She needn't have worried, for she is a natural professional, a real star and my favourite mum. (You can see us together in action on the back page.) Kate's KBC article, Issue 13 (Summer 1983)gaffa.org/garden/kate15.html
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Post by tannis on Aug 23, 2008 10:54:25 GMT
THOMAS AQUINAS: "Where are the angels?"In Suspended In Gaffa, the protagonist asks, "Mother, where are the angels?" Is KT referencing Saint Thomas Aquinas who, in the Middle Ages, asked similar questions? Saint Thomas Aquinas (c.1225 – 1274) was an Italian Catholic priest in the Dominican Order, a philosopher and theologian in the scholastic tradition, known as Doctor Angelicus, Doctor Universalis and Doctor Communis. The works for which he is best-known are the Summa Theologica and the Summa Contra Gentiles. The Summa Theologica follow a cycle: the existence of God, God's creation, Man, Man's purpose, Christ, the Sacraments, and back to God. The Summa is composed of three major parts, each of which deals with a major subsection of Christian theology. First Part (in Latin, Prima Pars): God's existence and nature; the creation of the world; angels; the nature of man. TREATISE ON THE ANGELS ~ THE ANGELS IN RELATION TO PLACEWe now inquire into the place of the angels. Touching this there are three subjects of inquiry: (1) Is the angel in a place? (2) Can he be in several places at once? (3) Can several angels be in the same place? Whether an angel is in a place?Aquin.: I answer that, It is befitting an angel to be in a place; yet an angel and a body are said to be in a place in quite a different sense. A body is said to be in a place in such a way that it is applied to such place according to the contact of dimensive quantity; but there is no such quantity in the angels, for theirs is a virtual one. Consequently an angel is said to be in a corporeal place by application of the angelic power in any manner whatever to any place. Accordingly there is no need for saying that an angel can be deemed commensurate with a place, or that he occupies a space in the continuous; for this is proper to a located body which is endowed with dimensive quantity. In similar fashion it is not necessary on this account for the angel to be contained by a place; because an incorporeal substance virtually contains the thing with which it comes into contact, and is not contained by it: for the soul is in the body as containing it, not as contained by it. In the same way an angel is said to be in a place which is corporeal, not as the thing contained, but as somehow containing it. Whether an angel can be in several places at once?Aquin.: I answer that, An angel's power and nature are finite, whereas the Divine power and essence, which is the universal cause of all things, is infinite: consequently God through His power touches all things, and is not merely present in some places, but is everywhere. Now since the angel's power is finite, it does not extend to all things, but to one determined thing. For whatever is compared with one power must be compared therewith as one determined thing. Consequently since all being is compared as one thing to God's universal power, so is one particular being compared as one with the angelic power. Hence, since the angel is in a place by the application of his power to the place, it follows that he is not everywhere, nor in several places, but in only one place. Whether several angels can be at the same time in the same place? Aquin.: I answer that, There are not two angels in the same place. The reason of this is because it is impossible for two complete causes to be the causes immediately of one and the same thing. This is evident in every class of causes: for there is one proximate form of one thing, and there is one proximate mover, although there may be several remote movers. Nor can it be objected that several individuals may row a boat, since no one of them is a perfect mover, because no one man's strength is sufficient for moving the boat; while all together are as one mover, in so far as their united strengths all combine in producing the one movement. Hence, since the angel is said to be in one place by the fact that his power touches the place immediately by way of a perfect container, as was said (A[1]), there can be but one angel in one place. We must next consider the local movement of the angels; under which heading there are three points of inquiry: (1) Whether an angel can be moved locally. (2) Whether in passing from place to place he passes through intervening space? (3) Whether the angel's movement is in time or instantaneous? ... St. Thomas Aquinas: Summa Theologicawww.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0023/_P1G.HTM
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Post by tannis on Aug 23, 2008 12:48:05 GMT
Suspended In Error... ?Date: Thu, 19 Mar 87 11:14:44 EST Subject: Suspended In Gaffa
Has anyone noticed that "Suspended In Gaffa" can be interpreted as being a song about a girl scared to lose her virginity? I was out with some friends last week and we started discussing it, one of them said that it had to do with gaining knowledge, I dismissed that as being too general and said "No, there's got to be a specific point to it." Here's what the debate produced:
"Out in the garden, there's half of a heaven" --The garden: a classic trysting place, symbol of nature and through the sex act, nature defiled. "we're only bluffing/we're not ones for busting through walls" --At this point, my friend who didn't see the sex angle immediately said "Oh, NOW I see it!" - busting through walls: representative of the tearing of the hymen, perhaps? "But they've told us unless we can prove/that we're doing it/ we can't have it all." --The narrator never specifically mentions what "it" is, so being the suspicious little weasels we are, we make "it" equal "sex". "He's gonna wangle a way to get out of it" --This line gives me trouble; guys are usually gung-ho about sex, maybe this one has second thoughts, maybe he likes the woman too much. "She's an excuse/and a witness who'll talk when he's called" --Seems like she considers it rape, she'll betray the man when a nameless "they" catch up with him and put him on trial. <unless we can prove that we're doing it... etc> The chorus is revealing, too. "Suddenly my feet are feet of mud/It all goes slow-mo" --She's scared to do it, she doesn't want to submit, lose her virginity. Nervousness, tension, are all evoked in this one line. "I don't know why I'm crying/am I suspended in Gaffa?" --Well, you know the old cliche, the woman cries after losing her virginity - something that can never be reclaimed. If, as has been previously proposed, the word "Gaffa" is a corruption of "Gaffe" then she obviously considers her submission to be a mistake, and she's caught up in it.
I'll try to cover the rest of the song at another point. Before I quit, have you noticed that of all those background messages, one of the most audible is "I'm scared of the changes"? Another argument for my case, I'd say. Any counter or supportive arguments are welcome.
A 'Best of' Love-Hounds Collection: "Suspended In Gaffa"gaffa.org/dreaming/td_sig.html
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Post by tannis on Aug 23, 2008 12:55:47 GMT
Is Suspended In Gaffa gender specific? And does it really matter? ... I won't open boxes That I am told not to. I'm not a Pandora. I'm much more like That girl in the mirror. Between you and me She don't stand a chance of getting anywhere at all. (I want it all) Not anywhere at all. (I want it all) No, not a thing. (I want it all) She can't have it all. "Mother, where are the angels? I'm scared of the changes." The first part of Suspended In Gaffa does not make gender clear. However, the last verse seems very much to suggest a female protagonist or leader: the "I want it all" is met with "She can't have it all", and there is reference to Pandora and "That girl in the mirror". But does the gender specified lyric really matter?"Their cover of Kate Bush's "Suspended In Gaffa" is a chin-up contender for better-than-original status..." Review: Ra Ra Riot - The Rhumb Linewww.craveonline.com/articles/music/04651429/review_ra_ra_riot__the_rhumb_line.htmlRa Ra Riot - Hoboken April 23rd - Suspended in Gaffa www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5uH_zzM7pE We have all been fans of Kate Bush since the early days when we covered “Hounds of Love,” and although “Gaffa” was one of my favorites, I was expecting it to be a little too quirky for us. While rehearsing for our tour with Tokyo Police Club, I walked into the carriage house where all of our equipment was set up and found the rest of the band (to my delight!) running through the structure. Milo is using the piano in the Daytrotter studio instead of the usual Wurlitzer electric piano.
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Post by Barry SR Gowing on Aug 23, 2008 17:00:28 GMT
Suspended In Error... ?Date: Thu, 19 Mar 87 11:14:44 EST Subject: Suspended In Gaffa
A 'Best of' Love-Hounds Collection: "Suspended In Gaffa"gaffa.org/dreaming/td_sig.htmlHas anyone noticed that "Suspended In Gaffa" can be interpreted as being a song about a girl scared to lose her virginity? I think it's a possible interpretation. I think the point would be that neither of them are ready yet. Guys are supposed to be gung-ho, but it aint necessarily so (particularly if you lack experience). In this interpretation "she" is suspended in gaffa because her life cannot continue until she can lose her virginity. This reminds me of the whole "purgatory" angle again. She cannot progress to the next stage at this time. She would like to "have it all" without actually going through the scary process involved in "getting there". A typical enough Kate paradox, I think. Mostly though I suspect that the potential loss of virginity is just an example of what Suspended in Gaffa can mean. Perhaps "she" may well go through many different events in her life when she is faced with a new challenge that will give her the same feeling (of being suspended in gaffa) as before. This is what I was talking about earlier when I talked about how Kate's songwriting focus moved from the physical/sexual exploration on to more spiritual/existential matters. --Paul--
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Post by rosabelbelieve on Aug 24, 2008 0:44:40 GMT
THOMAS AQUINAS: "Where are the angels?"In Suspended In Gaffa, the protagonist asks, "Mother, where are the angels?" Is KT referencing Saint Thomas Aquinas who, in the Middle Ages, asked similar questions? Saint Thomas Aquinas (c.1225 – 1274) was an Italian Catholic priest in the Dominican Order, a philosopher and theologian in the scholastic tradition, known as Doctor Angelicus, Doctor Universalis and Doctor Communis. The works for which he is best-known are the Summa Theologica and the Summa Contra Gentiles. The Summa Theologica follow a cycle: the existence of God, God's creation, Man, Man's purpose, Christ, the Sacraments, and back to God. The Summa is composed of three major parts, each of which deals with a major subsection of Christian theology. First Part (in Latin, Prima Pars): God's existence and nature; the creation of the world; angels; the nature of man. TREATISE ON THE ANGELS ~ THE ANGELS IN RELATION TO PLACEWe now inquire into the place of the angels. Touching this there are three subjects of inquiry: (1) Is the angel in a place? (2) Can he be in several places at once? (3) Can several angels be in the same place? Whether an angel is in a place?Aquin.: I answer that, It is befitting an angel to be in a place; yet an angel and a body are said to be in a place in quite a different sense. A body is said to be in a place in such a way that it is applied to such place according to the contact of dimensive quantity; but there is no such quantity in the angels, for theirs is a virtual one. Consequently an angel is said to be in a corporeal place by application of the angelic power in any manner whatever to any place. Accordingly there is no need for saying that an angel can be deemed commensurate with a place, or that he occupies a space in the continuous; for this is proper to a located body which is endowed with dimensive quantity. In similar fashion it is not necessary on this account for the angel to be contained by a place; because an incorporeal substance virtually contains the thing with which it comes into contact, and is not contained by it: for the soul is in the body as containing it, not as contained by it. In the same way an angel is said to be in a place which is corporeal, not as the thing contained, but as somehow containing it. Whether an angel can be in several places at once?Aquin.: I answer that, An angel's power and nature are finite, whereas the Divine power and essence, which is the universal cause of all things, is infinite: consequently God through His power touches all things, and is not merely present in some places, but is everywhere. Now since the angel's power is finite, it does not extend to all things, but to one determined thing. For whatever is compared with one power must be compared therewith as one determined thing. Consequently since all being is compared as one thing to God's universal power, so is one particular being compared as one with the angelic power. Hence, since the angel is in a place by the application of his power to the place, it follows that he is not everywhere, nor in several places, but in only one place. Whether several angels can be at the same time in the same place? Aquin.: I answer that, There are not two angels in the same place. The reason of this is because it is impossible for two complete causes to be the causes immediately of one and the same thing. This is evident in every class of causes: for there is one proximate form of one thing, and there is one proximate mover, although there may be several remote movers. Nor can it be objected that several individuals may row a boat, since no one of them is a perfect mover, because no one man's strength is sufficient for moving the boat; while all together are as one mover, in so far as their united strengths all combine in producing the one movement. Hence, since the angel is said to be in one place by the fact that his power touches the place immediately by way of a perfect container, as was said (A[1]), there can be but one angel in one place. We must next consider the local movement of the angels; under which heading there are three points of inquiry: (1) Whether an angel can be moved locally. (2) Whether in passing from place to place he passes through intervening space? (3) Whether the angel's movement is in time or instantaneous? ... St. Thomas Aquinas: Summa Theologicawww.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0023/_P1G.HTM Thank you for posting this. It gives a bit of a new perspective on the question of 'Where are the angels?'
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Post by rosabelbelieve on Aug 24, 2008 0:50:11 GMT
Suspended In Error... ?Date: Thu, 19 Mar 87 11:14:44 EST Subject: Suspended In Gaffa
A 'Best of' Love-Hounds Collection: "Suspended In Gaffa"gaffa.org/dreaming/td_sig.htmlHas anyone noticed that "Suspended In Gaffa" can be interpreted as being a song about a girl scared to lose her virginity? I think it's a possible interpretation. I agree. Suspended In Gaffa is such a multilayered song, that I think the essence is of crossing boundaries, and changing, seeking something, whether that is physical or spiritual - and the barriers and fears that keep you from doing so. It really can relate to so much... I often think of this song when I've got writer's block or feel uninspired. It's the same feeling of searching after that elusive, ecstatic, 'All', but having to do a great deal of work to get there.
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Post by tannis on Aug 25, 2008 6:23:07 GMT
I think it's a possible interpretation. I agree. Suspended In Gaffa is such a multilayered song, that I think the essence is of crossing boundaries, and changing, seeking something, whether that is physical or spiritual - and the barriers and fears that keep you from doing so. It really can relate to so much... I often think of this song when I've got writer's block or feel uninspired. It's the same feeling of searching after that elusive, ecstatic, 'All', but having to do a great deal of work to get there. Yes, I agree, Rosa. Prior to The Sensual World (1989), KaTe went through a period where she couldn't write at all, so spent a lot of time out in the garden... So, who knows, maybe KaTe had to bust through a writer's block to write Suspended In Gaffa... The album in question is 'The Sensual World'. Four years in the making, it's been a struggle. KB: "I wanted to take time off after the 'Hounds Of Love' album. I wanted to spend some time at home, be quiet for a bit and try and think about what I wanted to say. I wrote a few songs but it didn't take me long to realise I wasn't happy with them. I went through a period where I couldn't write at all so I spent a lot of time gardening. I thought I'd lost it. I didn't have anything to say and I didn't want to go out. Nothing like that had happened to me before. I went back to it bit by bit and eventually worked it through." Her record company knew better than to push Kate Bush. KB: "I'm left alone to work on albums. If there was any outside pressure I'd completely go under and probably have to be put away in an institution somewhere." Tracks, "Love, Trust and Hitler", November 1989gaffa.org/reaching/i89_tr.html
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