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Post by ~Passion~ on Aug 16, 2005 19:12:21 GMT
Mind you of course, KB will have put her own slant on the story so perhaps it could be the child's Father after all! After hearing this song I automatically got the impression that it was a babysitter: "Back home they'd call me dirty" I get the impression (based on my own life experiences) Back home they'd call me dirty is just a burden on her decisions and worries. She wants a child badly. Oh, but what would they say if they suspected? A fatherless child of Kate. Illegitimate yet perfectly developed in her eyes. The desires to conceive are inevitable! Perhaps she is daydreaming these thoughts as her biological clock is ticking. She must become with child. No control.
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stev0
Moving
He's an utter creep and he drives me 'round the bend
Posts: 517
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Post by stev0 on Aug 17, 2005 1:10:53 GMT
I don't think it's so much as Kate (or rather, the character Kate is singing about) wanting a kid, but rather, wanting to have sex with a kid. Back where I come from they'd call her dirty, too.
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Sheila
Moving
Life is a minestrone served up with parmesan cheese.
Posts: 701
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Post by Sheila on Aug 17, 2005 2:55:36 GMT
One of the reasons I love Kate is she watches, and gets inspired by movies the exact same way I do! This song (as far as I can tell from watching "The Innocents") was based on ONE TINY MOMENT in the whole film! The character that Kate is supposed to be tucks the boy in bed, he (who, yes, is posessed by a man who is in love with the nanny, aka the Kate character) shoots her a "bedroom eyes" sort of look and then you see the nanny just standing there unsure how to react and scared of what she is feeling. Very subtle, and exactly the type of thing Kate would pick up on and get out of a movie. She wrote "Between a Man and a Woman" based on one line in a movie too. And "Be Kind to My Mistakes" as well (unfortuneatly I sat through that disaster of a movie) I myself have written songs based on one tiny moment in such films as "Full Metal Jacket" (called "I am The Sniper" only later to realize I basically just rewrote "Pull out the Pin" ), Appolo 13,( a song called "I just can't go to the launch") oh and others I'm drawing a blank suddenly. I just pray to whatever deity will listen to me that Michael Jackson doesn't cover this song! Okay, very tasteles joke... Point being, if you see "The Innocents", this song is no where near as controversial as it at first seems...
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Post by ~Passion~ on Jan 4, 2006 6:23:41 GMT
Now that I have listened to this song repeatedly, I can't help but think about the teacher Mary Kay Laterno and her student sweetheart Vili Fualaau.The previous initial theories are clever. In order to conceive these ideas to be more convincing other than what I had mentioned, I need to study her albums more closely.
Yea, I'm still wet behind the ears. lol
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mizzshy
Reaching Out
"Oh darling, Make it go, Make it go away..."
Posts: 214
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Post by mizzshy on Apr 21, 2006 20:42:24 GMT
I think this thread has some interesting ideas... I don't really like the way I initially percieved the song, and it's good to have some other theories too.
Which films were they?
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Post by Hikagemono on Sept 17, 2006 0:48:42 GMT
Hm… usually with Kate Bush's songs there is indeed much more to the subject than what appears on the surface, and during the time this came out, she didn't have as much individual control like mentioned before, so I definitely agree and can see the various prospective that have been given.
However, my own first impression after hearing this song was just as it appears: an older woman attracted to someone younger (like first mentioned); but not necessarily in a perverse sense where he is a minor. He could actually be just a young man, but given her stage in life and being older, she still views him just as a boy, but yet he shows more wisdom and maturity than someone his age would normally. She’s ashamed because although it’s not an actual child, given the age difference it could be viewed by others as improper.
I hate to put it in popish terms, but think Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher.
Aahhh… I don’t know. I’m probably not making any sense, ssooo enough of my ramblings, eh?
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Post by Al Truest on Sept 17, 2006 5:37:46 GMT
^ She wasn't THAT out of control. The taboo subject matter of incest was broached in "The Infant Kiss" Kate draws inspiration often from film, folklore and literature. The movie "The Innocents" is the impetus for this song. Here is a video made by a fan using scenes from the film: [ftp]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUTkd4C0XA[/ftp] The link isn't working. But you can do a search and find it there.
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Post by Al Truest on Sept 20, 2006 0:05:46 GMT
^ She wasn't THAT out of control. The taboo subject matter of incest was broached in "The Infant Kiss" Kate draws inspiration often from film, folklore and literature. The movie "The Innocents" is the impetus for this song. Here is a video made by a fan using scenes from the film: [ftp]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUTkd4C0XA[/ftp] The link isn't working. But you can do a search and find it there. Not having seen the movie "The Innocents" I may have been hasty in assuming a theme of incest or even pedophilia, although the later concept is disturbingly touched upon. Apparently, after a bit of reading of another fan's impressions, the movie stated is a psychological thriller and ultimately a horror movie. The adult in the situation is the Nanny (not the mother) and the child is possessed by evil (from what I understood) I can elaborate further with a bit more research. But perhaps someone else who has seen the film (Zan?) could enlighten us a bit more.
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Post by Xanadu on Sept 20, 2006 18:11:54 GMT
Not having seen the movie "The Innocents" I may have been hasty in assuming a theme of incest or even pedophilia, although the later concept is disturbingly touched upon. Apparently, after a bit of reading of another fan's impressions, the movie stated is a psychological thriller and ultimately a horror movie. The adult in the situation is the Nanny (not the mother) and the child is possessed by evil (from what I understood) I can elaborate further with a bit more research. But perhaps someone else who has seen the film (Zan?) could enlighten us a bit more. I have seen just about every known version available of this story. Kate may or may not have been inspired by the actual film The Innocents, but most likely was. However, even that film does not convey the true sexual repression and psychological torment that is present in the original novel... The Turn Of The Screw by Henry James. One of my faves. Is the child really possessed by the spirit of a less than reputable gentleman who desires the nanny, or is her righteous upbringing and devasting loneliness finally driven her mad? It is told by her first person through an old account. You'd have to be the judge as to the actual events in the story. James is a master of the intricacies and repressions of the psyche, though the filter of the late 19th and early 20th Centuries.
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Post by Al Truest on Sept 20, 2006 22:34:20 GMT
Not having seen the movie "The Innocents" I may have been hasty in assuming a theme of incest or even pedophilia, although the later concept is disturbingly touched upon. Apparently, after a bit of reading of another fan's impressions, the movie stated is a psychological thriller and ultimately a horror movie. The adult in the situation is the Nanny (not the mother) and the child is possessed by evil (from what I understood) I can elaborate further with a bit more research. But perhaps someone else who has seen the film (Zan?) could enlighten us a bit more. I have seen just about every known version available of this story. I had figured as much. My 'must see' list should be expanded to include it. Gaffaweb sites the film as an influence. The video I linked was produced by a Kate insider as well. One would assume then that Kate would have used this source as well. Thanks for the input and enlightening comments.
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Post by Xanadu on Sept 21, 2006 0:54:26 GMT
I had figured as much. My 'must see' list should be expanded to include it. You'd probably like the book too, actually more of a novella, since it is rather short. Another Henry James story I think you'd particularly enjoy is "The Real Thing," also a shorter story. Excellent for artists, of any variety, dealing with the source of inspiration.
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Post by Al Truest on Sept 23, 2006 1:11:51 GMT
I had figured as much. My 'must see' list should be expanded to include it. You'd probably like the book too, actually more of a novella, since it is rather short. Another Henry James story I think you'd particularly enjoy is "The Real Thing," also a shorter story. Excellent for artists, of any variety, dealing with the source of inspiration. With my schedule and attention span a Novella on the subject sounds enticing. I will endeavor to check it out. Thanks!
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Post by Xanadu on Oct 7, 2006 17:45:26 GMT
Maybe someone would like to watch The Innocents during the Halloween season, then we can have a little discussion about the song, hmmm? It's on DVD in Full and Widescreen format on Netflix (hint, hint)
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Post by tannis on Dec 29, 2007 17:10:14 GMT
"So many films touch you, even if it's only the atmosphere you're left with. There was The Innocents which I saw when I was a kid. It was so strong, and years later I wrote 'The Infant Kiss'..." (1990, Q Special; gaffa.org/cloud/subjects/film.html). The Innocents is a 1961 horror film based on the novella The Turn of the Screw by Henry James. Directed and produced by Jack Clayton, it stars Deborah Kerr, Megs Jenkins and Michael Redgrave. William Archibald and Truman Capote won a 1962 Edgar Award from the Mystery Writers of America for Best Motion Picture Screenplay. The title of the film was taken from Archibald's stage adaptation of James' novella. According to Professor Christopher Frayling, much of the screenplay is derived from William Archibald's play of the same name, which premiered on Broadway in 1950, rather than coming directly from James' novella, though he credits Truman Capote with about 90% of the film's script as it appears on the screen. Frayling attributes the Freudian subtext to screenwriter Capote, whose contribution gives the film a Southern Gothic feel - with the governess's repressed erotic sensibility counterpointed by shots of lush and decaying plants and rapacious insect life. Clayton though choose to downplay this aspect in the finished film to preserve the ambiguity between the ghost story and Freudian element. 1/3 THE INNOCENTS (1961)"He had the devil's own eye..."'The Innocents' is about souls in danger... The film opens with Miss Giddens crying in the dark, "More than anything, I love children..." "Have you an imagination..." The new governess, Miss Giddens, is given "supreme authority" over two orphaned infants, Miles and Flora, by their uncle... The master's valet, the Heathcliffe-like Peter Quint, is dead; so too is the previous governess, Miss Jessel, drowned in the lake, suicide... Over and done with... But is it? ...On one level, this is an allegory of Good Vs Evil, with the virtuous governess fighting to save the children from being possessed by the demonic ghostly spirits of the former governess, Miss Jessel and the vicious valet Quint... On the other side, it is a pre-Freudian study of sexual neurosis and Oedipal desires, in which a repressed Victorian spinster (mother-surrogate) with a colourful imagination starts seeing things... The multiplicity gives the tale its horror... Miss Giddens gets 'carried away quite easily and 'can't help imagining things'... Flora looks angelic, but is there something of the night about her? A cruelty, a possession? ... And Miles? Why, even before he has arrived, Miss G fears he has the power to corrupt! ... Miss G is enchanted with Miles. He flatters her, much as his uncle had done. A little adult, magical and precociously gifted... "I like a boy with spirit," Miss G has said, but Miles's 'spirit' is ultimately to cause her great disturbance... "I've let them go... Upstairs to the attic perhaps, alone" ... The relationship between Miles and Miss G follows the pattern of that between Quint and Miss Jessel... Miles seems to possess the strength of a man, and their attic struggle (after Miss G has seen the picture of Quint) appears to turn into a violent embrace... Then there's the diabolical threat of Quint's 'handsome and obscene' ghost; Quint who befriended Miles - took advantage - and now seems out to hunt the children down... Miss Grose says that Quint had 'such power over people' and Miles 'worshipped' him... "What shall I sing to my Lord from my window?" ... Are the children lying? Are they playing ('or being made to play') a monstrous game? Have they made terrible and terrifying identifications? Are they in spiritual peril? ... "The children are watching! The children are watching! The children are watching! ... Love me! Love me! Love me!"'There are two of them... two of those abominations... We must try to learn what it is these horrors want!' ... 'Look at them. What do you think they're saying? ... Talking horrors!' ... 'They can only reach each other by entering the souls of the children and possessing them! The children are possessed! They live and know and share this hell! ... They must be made to admit what is happening!' ... Has Miss G become obsessed and possessed of the sexuality between Quint and Miss Jessel? I found a fox Caught by dogs He let me take him in my hands... - HOL 'He [Quint] came home late... late and full of drink... I can't forget his eyes: they were open, filled with surprise, with pain... like the eyes of a fox I once saw, a fox the dogs had hunted down...' - from The Innocents, 1961.
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Post by tannis on Dec 29, 2007 17:10:54 GMT
2/3 THE INFANT KISSMiles: "Kiss me goodnight, Miss Giddens!" ... But things are not right... In the song, she is aroused by the child's goodnight kiss, which dangerously lingers (as in the film) until she and he Let go...Reaction-formation? - From then on she is gripped ('I cannot sit and let') by the idea that he is possessed and in spiritual danger... But maybe she is the one possessed and in spiritual danger? ... And in the film her 'virtuous' actions make something happen she'll forever regret!She is both repulsed by and drawn to the child, the man behind those eyes...'Ooh, he scares me!' - Quint? Miles? Or herself possessed of 'Quint'? The child becomes a screen on which she projects her unconscious sexuality. The 'innocent' presence of the (sexually-aware) child(ren) makes her terrified of her Victorian repressions! Her 'dirty mind' catches him when she's bending... 'Words of caress on their lips That speak of adult love' - The children's awareness of Quint and Miss Jessel have 'corrupted' them with sexual knowledge. Indeed, Q&J have 'corrupted' the very house... Miss Grose: 'Rooms used by daylight as though they were dark woods!' 'I want to smack but I hold back' - She wants to discipline the children, to govern/correct/censor/repress them, but she holds back because it is only through their talk and behaviour that Miss G can enjoy being corrupted by 'Quint'? ... Is Miss G being turned by Quint's screw? ... The children are not 'innocent'; they were privy to Q&J... Is it the governess's 'innocence' that is corrupting? ... 'But I must stay and find a way To stop before it gets too much!' - Miss G is determined to 'exorcise' Miles, to free herself of 'possession' by Quint... 'All my barriers are going/It's starting to show/Let go. Let go. Let go' ... But her Victorian 'Upstairs' sexual morality is giving way to the Q&J 'Downstairs' code... She is falling down, psychologically disturbed... and desperate to return the child's infant kiss... Don't let go! ... KB: "Whenever I base something on a book or a film I don't take a direct copy. I don't steal it. I'll put it through my personal experiences, and in some cases it becomes a very strange mixture of complete fiction and very, very personal fears within me."gaffa.org/cloud/music/the_infant_kiss.htmlKB: "The Infant Kiss is about a governess. She is torn between the love of an adult man and a child, who are within the same body."gaffa.org/garden/kate8.htmlKate rarely sings straight forward love songs; TMWTCIHE, WH, TKI, ITWR, KFB, B, TWL, TIK, RUTH, BAMAAW, WSILY, MrsB, etc. etc. are all complicated, edgy, or deviant.
KT fantasised on illicit union in "The Kick Inside" (c.1976); and returned to the theme in "The Infant Kiss" (Never for Ever, 1980). She revisited TIK as "Un Baiser D’Enfant", released as a B-side in June 1983 in France and Canada.
NE T’ENFUIS PAS Side A: Ne T’Enfuis Pas (Single Remix) 2:32 Side B:[/i] Un Baiser D’Enfant 2:57 Produced by Kate Bush and Jon Kelly "Ne T'Enfuis Pas" - Fretless, Linn drum programming: Del Palmer Fairlight, vocals: Kate Bush; Engineer: Paul Hardiman Lyrics: Kate Bush, Vivienne Chandler, Patrick Jeaneau "Un Baiser D'Enfant" - Strings: Adam and Jo Skeaping Electric Guitar: Alan Murphy; Piano, vocal: Kate Bush; Engineer: Jon Kelly French version engineered and remixed: Paul Hardiman French translation: Francois Cahan Thanks to assistant engineers: John Barratt, Dave Taylor and Jeremy Allom Photo credit: Kindlight EMI, FRANCE, EMI 65152, 07.1983[/color] www.katebush.pl/main.htmIn Kate's KBC article, Issue 1 (January 1979), "Kate's Songs", KaTe remembers her brother John telling her about Wuthering Heights. gaffa.org/garden/kate1.htmlThen in 1986, John writes:Tristan and Isolde are deeply woven into modern love tragedy. The funeral song for Tristan, Mild und Leise, is the song of the love that challenges the power of death itself. Before Rock and Roll there were only Opera to work the emotions on the grand scale that only music can, and here Isolde has taken the drink that will bind her for ever to Tristan, and Romeo to Juliet, and Cathy to Heathcliff, and Quint to.... "Cathy" (JCB, 1986)home.att.net/~james51453/cathy18.htmAnd I'll do it for you I'll be the Rose of Sharon for you I'll do it for you I'll be the Lily of the Valley for you I'll do it for you I'll be Isolde or Marion for you I'll do it for you Ooh I'll come in a hurricane for you I'll do it for you A wop bam boom ~ Kate Bush, The Song Of Solomon, 1993All my barriers are going It's starting to show Let go. Let go. Let go (Don't let go!)see more: "Un Baiser d'enfant"katebush.proboards6.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=tww1&thread=1765&page=1
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