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Post by rosabelbelieve on Mar 31, 2008 14:37:08 GMT
I really don't know anything technically about music, but I have to say, I love Kate's singing over the guitar solo at the end. I like the more otherworldly and shrill vocals on the original, but this part has always been some of what gave this version its emotional power, IMHO.
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Post by tannis on Mar 31, 2008 21:10:19 GMT
Yes, IMHO the new vocal version is still a fabulous song, with emotional depth and power... I also don't know anything technically about music, so appreciate any comments from someone who does...
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Post by Barry SR Gowing on Apr 1, 2008 1:02:49 GMT
I understand why she wanted to redo the vocal. The original vocal is a bit ... eldritch, although that seems appropriate.
I do, on the whole, enjoy her "later" vocal style .. and there is nothing really wrong with her vocals (other than the bum note) but it's more the overall idea of remaking it using the original backing track that rubs me up the wrong way.
Personally I'd rather that she had completely remade the song from scratch. A HOL-era take on the song might have been quite interesting.
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Post by Adey on Apr 1, 2008 2:01:29 GMT
Unfortunately I have to agree. The missed note is the only time I've heard Kate sing noticeably flat on a studio recording. It's almost painful, to me anyway, and shocking because Kate has such good pitch normally. Interestingly, the woman who impersonated Kate singing 'Wuthering Heights' on 'Stars in their Eyes' also had the same problem with the same note. If anything, the 1986 version sounds far more dated than the original. It's got way too much reverb on almost everything and the mix sounds overly bright and cluttered. Fabulous song though. I particularly like how the verses have no definable key: the tonal centre keeps shifting from chord to chord. Even the chorus, which is a bit more tonally stable, is still ambiguous. Plus there's a neat little trick Kate uses to get in and out of the chorus .. essentially shifting down (and then later up) a semitone. Sorry to get all technical on you, but Kate's early stuff is a bit richer harmonically than her later stuff (where she gets more into rhythm and modality and texture) so this kind of stuff intrigues me. I'm thinking of transcribing some of her songs because I see that most of her sheet music is out of print (and it's probably inaccurate anyway). --Paul-- Excellent observations. The chromatic step into the chorus is something I've always loved about the song. The effect is like someone stepping off a rising lift onto a solid landing. Amazing where one extra semitone can take you..
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Post by tannis on May 15, 2008 18:15:38 GMT
The Efteling Kate Bush SpecialTo promote the new haunted castle of the Dutch theme park Efteling, Kate Bush was asked to do a TV special of her album "The Kick Inside". Kate was 19 years old at that time. The TV special starts with a specially made tombstone covered with leaves. When the wind blows the leaves away, KATE BUSH is revealed: see www.xs4all.nl/~gniletfe/gif/kate1.gifWuthering HeightsThe song is recorded in the main show of the haunted castle. The public sees the show behind a big glass wall but for the special Kate performed in the show. The show takes place in the courtyard of a medieval monastery. The courtyard is full of tombstones. On the left there is a chapel. In the middle there is a passage where the ghosts of monks walk. On the right is a sarcophagus where the song starts. On the first notes of the song the sarcophagus opens and Kate climbs out. She is wearing a long white dress and walks between the tombstones that move on the music. A touch of smoke is added in this special for extra effect. Then we see Kate dancing in front of the passage in which the (mechanically operated) monks walk. In the following shot the camera is placed in front of the passage and films to the left where we see Kate dancing with a pile of moving skulls behind her. The following shot is superb. Through a hole in the ground in front of the passage we can look into the catacombs. During the normal show the public sees there transparent ghosts chasing each other. The ghost are transparent because the public looks at a reflection in a big glass wall. The real ghosts walk out of sight. Because of special lighting the glass wall in the show works as a mirror. For the shots in the Kate Bush special, the ghosts are replaced by a dancing Kate. The camera films her glass reflection and therefore we see a transparent Kate dancing in the catacombs. The next shots are with Kate standing on the attic above the sarcophagus and between the tombstones. The song ends with a moving gargoyle that is located on the construction around the sarcophagus. Kate Bush - Wuthering heightswww.youtube.com/watch?v=IuTXqtAswk4&feature=user
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Post by rosabelbelieve on May 15, 2008 18:49:15 GMT
I'd never seen that video for Wuthering Heights, and I think of the several versions it's my favorite. Thank you for the links to the Efteling Special videos.
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Post by tannis on May 15, 2008 19:22:06 GMT
Yes, the Efteling Special has some wonderful KaTe performances, especially Wuthering Heights... The shots of KaTe's ghostly reflection dancing in the catacombs must really tease and torment Heathcliff! ...
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Post by ketman on Jun 20, 2008 11:42:42 GMT
Just read this whole thread, and I'm quite amazed to find others talking about something that was on my own mind about this song. It was what made me think Kate Bush was worth investigating in the first place. This was one of the first songs of hers that I listened to carefully, and although the lyrics were interesting enough, it was the sheer harmonic invention of the music that bowled me over.
Both Barry and Adey mention the semitone shift going into the chorus, and that's something that grabbed me. I've been working through that progression on my guitar and marvelling at its strange logic. Preparing for the chorus, Bush steps off a "suspended chord", which is a three-note chord that sounds dissonant because one of the notes is misaligned. It's a semitone too high, and the dissonance would be "resolved" with a drop of one semitone - or it would in orthodox harmony, anyway. But she holds it steady and teases us with it - "Wuthering, Wuthering, Wuthering.." - before finally resolving it. But there's a twist, because the resolution we expect isn't what we get. Instead of that rogue note falling, it stays put, and the other two notes of the chord rise a semi-tone (as Adey says, like stepping off a rising lift). We end up with a chord that she immediately nails to a brand new and totally unexpected key by playing in fairly quick succession three other chords connected to it. But we don't actually hit the tonic (main) chord of this new key until the word "home". And it is like home, because it's a harmonic homecoming that is quite unexpected and quite beautiful. I mentioned Delius in my posts yesterday, and I don't think it would be going too far to say that he would have been envious of that manoeuvre. It's a delayed resolution that is the most magical moment of the song. Utterly brilliant.
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Post by Barry SR Gowing on Jun 21, 2008 16:27:12 GMT
Both Barry and Adey mention the semitone shift going into the chorus, and that's something that grabbed me. I've been working through that progression on my guitar and marvelling at its strange logic. Preparing for the chorus, Bush steps off a "suspended chord", which is a three-note chord that sounds dissonant because one of the notes is misaligned. It's a semitone too high, and the dissonance would be "resolved" with a drop of one semitone - or it would in orthodox harmony, anyway. But she holds it steady and teases us with it - "Wuthering, Wuthering, Wuthering.." - before finally resolving it. But there's a twist, because the resolution we expect isn't what we get. Instead of that rogue note falling, it stays put, and the other two notes of the chord rise a semi-tone (as Adey says, like stepping off a rising lift). We end up with a chord that she immediately nails to a brand new and totally unexpected key by playing in fairly quick succession three other chords connected to it. But we don't actually hit the tonic (main) chord of this new key until the word "home". And it is like home, because it's a harmonic homecoming that is quite unexpected and quite beautiful. Good point ketman. I hadn't thought about the aptness of hitting the new tonic on the word "home", but it works, doesn't it? I notice that the chorus reuses two of the chords from the little bridge section before the chorus ("bad dreams in the night" etc) but in a different key. That's a nice touch. I also mentioned before how the start of the song constantly seems to shift keys: A .......................F Out on the wiley, windy moors .......E .....................Db We'd roll and fall in green But seeing how the key changes work in the rest of the song I'm starting to think that the first part of verse is like a quick summary of the rest of the song. There's also some subtle variations of those four intro chords as the verse continues; altered bass notes and so on. Finally the verse uses an Ab chord to transition to the next section, again a sort of unexpected move given the A chord that has been used three times before. Kate has mentioned that her favourite song is John Lennon's #9 Dream, and I can certainly imagine that she might have noticed some of the novel harmonic moves in certain Beatles and Lennon songs. It's certainly unusual to hear extreme harmonic novelty in popular music - particularly combined with rapturously beautiful melody - but it's certainly always welcome! --Paul--
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Post by ketman on Jun 23, 2008 15:57:11 GMT
I mentioned problems with the source text of Bush songs in terms of slight differences in the lyrics, but didn't say anything about the music. You'd expect that to be reliable at least. But not so. I heard a version on YouTube by Pat Benatar, which is pitched four semi-tones lower than the Bush version, so it starts in F instead of A, and the chorus is in A rather than Db. Now, it doesn't bother me that the song is transposed to a different key - for one thing it's a more guitar-friendly key, because Db is a bastard on the guitar - but I noticed immediately that in the section I was talking about last time they've tampered with the critical chord. Translating it to the original key, it means they'd be playing F-min instead of F-sus, which is to lose all the subtlety and originality I was enthusing about. Maybe it was just so eccentric they felt they had to tame it.
Looking at what you said about how you see the underlying patterns, I'd like to say I agree or disagree. But the fact is, I'm lost with this song. I don't know about you, but my parents bought me my first guitar in 1961, and I've been messing around on it ever since. I ought to know what I'm doing by now. But even having worked out all the chords and having them right there in front of me, I still can't see how it all fits together. The sequence you cited, A, F, E, Db, must belong as a sequence to a particular key - but what key? Damned if I know. And things aren't helped the third time through when she throws us an extra chord on the end - Ab ("loved you too"). Still doesn't help. I don't know how the bloody song works. It just does. The depressing thing is that she was just nineteen when she wrote it. I think I'll throw myself off the nearest cliff when I can find the time.
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Post by ketman on Jun 29, 2008 0:22:40 GMT
Returning in a nit-picking way to concerns about the reliability of the sources, there are four places where I have to question the authenticity of the lyrics posted at the top of this thread.
The first word I wanted to question was "wiley", and an internet search turned up only one authority, Wiktionary, that recognized it as a real word. According to them it's a "well-watered meadow". Which looked promising at first glance because, at a stretch, that description could fit a moor. But it was pure chance. The Wiktionary entry has a note appended to the definition: "The only source (on the web) for this meaning seems to be in dictionaries of baby-names." In other words it doesn't exist. It isn't a real word.
But "wily" - one letter shorter - does exist, and means devious or cunning or crafty - not a good way to describe a stretch of barren land, obviously, but if that's the word Kate chose, that's what we're stuck with. But did she choose it? If it's a mis-hearing of another word, the alternatives make a pretty small list. Instead of "wily, windy", there is "windy, windy", with "windy" pronounced two different ways, the first time as "wine-dy" - as in "windy paths". Is she singing that? I can't tell, but it's possible. But it still isn't a very good way of describing a flat expanse of land. A path on a moor might wind, but the moor itself wouldn't.
I would love it if what she was singing was "wildy", as an obscure variation of "wild". I've googled for it, and can't find it, but I'm sure it exists as a word, and I believe it was used in Victorian times and earlier as a specifically poetic word - "wildy seas" is one phrase I remember. It would be a perfect fit in terms of meaning (WH is a Victorian story, after all), and also fits in terms of sound. However it must be said that the chances of it being what Kate chose are remote, because it's unlikely Kate would have come across the word at her age. So I suppose it must be "wily".
The remaining cases are where the text says one thing, but I hear something else. I reproduce the text in each instance, and underneath put what I hear.
They told me I was going to lose the fight You told me I was going to lose the fight
it's me Cathy it's me I'm Cathy
come home I've come home
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Post by rosabelbelieve on Jun 29, 2008 0:31:57 GMT
Funny, I've always thought that 'wily' as in cunning or crafty, does sort of fit my picture of the landscape Wuthering Heights takes place in. Though I must admit I've never seen an English moor in real life. But maybe it was a free-associative and intuitive word that just seemed right to Kate as she wrote the song. I know as a writer that I sometimes use words that don't technically make much sense, simply because they convey a certain feeling or atmosphere by the way they look and sound. 'Wildy' would also fit quite well, though.
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Post by tannis on Jun 30, 2008 14:11:15 GMT
CATHY'S GHOST: "Heathcliff! Let me in! Let me in! I'm lost on the moors! - It's Cathy!" HEATHCLIFF: "Cathy! Cathy! Come in! Cathy, come back to me. Oh, do come once more. Oh, my heart's darling! Cathy. My own-- My-- Cathy!" ~ Wuthering Heights (1939)"My love for Linton is like the foliage in the woods: time will change it, I'm well aware, as winter changes the trees. My love for Heathcliff resembles the eternal rocks beneath: a source of little visible delight, but necessary. Nelly, I AM Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being. So don't talk of our separation again: it is impracticable..." ~ Ch. 9, Wuthering Heights by Emily BronteI agree that KaTe's vocal on The Kick Inside version of Wuthering Heights can be heard as both "Out on the wildly, windy moors..." and "Out on the wily, windy moors..." Of course, 'wildly', meaning extremely or in a wild manner, also suggests wild, untamed nature: the uncultivated, the uncivilized, the unconscious - themes very much part of Brontë's novel. However, on The Whole Story version of Wuthering Heights, the New Vocal is clearer, and I only hear "Out on the wily, windy moors..." (which, of course, clarifies The Kick Inside original version!).
Brontë's 'Wuthering Heights' has the wild, windy moors; its inhabitants possess the same characteristics; and Cathy and Heathcliff oscillate wildly! Maybe, the young KaTe originally wrote "Out on the wi-ld, windy moors...", but changed 'wild' to the poetic 'wily' so as to personify the nature of the moors, giving them human-like characteristics. And the wild moors are indeed wily - they entice, disarm, seduce, and ensnare. Cathy and Heathcliff w[h]iled away many a happy childhood afternoon over the moors. And Cathy's wily ghost cries: "Heathcliff! Let me in! Let me in! I'm lost on the moors! - It's Cathy!" The constant emphasis on landscape within the text of Wuthering Heights endows the setting with symbolic importance. This landscape is comprised primarily of moors: wide, wild expanses, high but somewhat soggy, and thus infertile. Moorland cannot be cultivated, and its uniformity makes navigation difficult. It features particularly waterlogged patches in which people could potentially drown. (This possibility is mentioned several times in Wuthering Heights.) Thus, the moors serve very well as symbols of the wild threat posed by nature. As the setting for the beginnings of Catherine and Heathcliff’s bond (the two play on the moors during childhood), the moorland transfers its symbolic associations onto the love affair. www.sparknotes.com/lit/wuthering/themes.htmlWuthering Heights, the home of the Earnshaws, was built alongside the moors. Winds whip across these barren fields, making the growth of trees impossible. The estate received its name because of how bad weather attacks the house and its surroundings. The moors are the favorite place for Catherine Earnshaw and Heathcliff to play, and it later becomes the playground of Cathy Linton. Like the Heights, which must be strong to stand against the wind, the children who love the moors are strong and independent. Neither Edgar or Isabella Linton express much interest in this barren landscape, and Linton Heathcliff is too ill to traverse the moors. www.bookrags.com/notes/wh/TOP2.htmBrontë explains her use of the word: "Wuthering being a significant provincial adjective, descriptive of the atmospheric tumult to which its station is exposed in stormy weather." Brontë successfully describes the area of the moors as a bleak, cold and barren place. She also relates the description of the moors to Wuthering Heights as she describes the house as a cold, dark and dismal house, with windows that are deeply set in the walls. The imagery used to describe both Wuthering Heights and its surroundings sets a scene that is grim and dark, almost like a kind of horror film or novel, where the conflict, as well as the climax, takes place in an environment that is full of hate or evil... Emily Brontë was able to link together the wild and uncivilized nature of Heathcliff, Catherine and Hindley along with their mental and physical decay... Human nature verses Mother Nature is expressed in the novel both through the setting of Wuthering Heights as well as through the changing nature of the characters in the manor. In the same way that the moors has the fickle behavior of Mother Nature, the household of Wuthering Heights experienced the fickle behavior of human nature. In my opinion Heathcliff is the personification of Wuthering Heights as his actions as well as character was a direct correlation of the weather experienced by the moors. In Wuthering Heights the only source of heat is the fire located in the center of the house. Heathcliff is also symbolic of this fire, which is like his heart and is therefore fueled by his passion for Catherine. At every vital scene Brontë has described the weather as it correlates to the situation and with this house it is predominantly wild and turbulent... So is Wuthering Heights a person, place or both? The answer is simply that it is both. Wuthering Heights symbolizes both the disruptive mutability of human nature, as well as the turbulent harshness of Mother Nature. www.geocities.com/Athens/5426/person.html----- Bad dreams in the night...CATHY: 'I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas: they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind. And this is one: I'm going to tell it - but take care not to smile at any part of it.' ~ Ch. 9, Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte
CATHY: 'Oh, dear! I thought I was at home,' she sighed. 'I thought I was lying in my chamber at Wuthering Heights. Because I'm weak, my brain got confused, and I screamed unconsciously. Don't say anything; but stay with me. I dread sleeping: my dreams appal me.' ~ Ch. 12, Wuthering Heights by Emily BronteYou told me I was going to lose the fight...HEATHCLIFF: 'Are you possessed with a devil,' he pursued, savagely, 'to talk in that manner to me when you are dying? Do you reflect that all those words will be branded in my memory, and eating deeper eternally after you have left me? You know you lie to say I have killed you: and, Catherine, you know that I could as soon forget you as my existence! Is it not sufficient for your infernal selfishness, that while you are at peace I shall writhe in the torments of hell?' ~ Ch. 15, Wuthering Heights by Emily BronteThe remaining cases are where the text says one thing, but I hear something else. I reproduce the text in each instance, and underneath put what I hear. They told me I was going to lose the fight You told me I was going to lose the fight it's me Cathy it's me I'm Cathy come home I've come home HEATHCLIFF: "What right to throw love away for the poor fancy thing you felt for him? For a handful of worldliness? Misery, death and all the evils God and man could've handed down... would never have parted us. You did that alone. You wandered off... like a wanton, greedy child... to break your heart and mine." ~ Wuthering Heights (1939)I agree, ketman: the text says one thing, but I hear something else...Too hot, too greedy Too hard, too greedy...
They told me I was going to lose the fight You told me I was going to lose the fight...
Heathcliff, it's me - Cathy Come home. I'm so cold! Let me in-a-your window
Heathcliff, it's me - I'm Cathy I've Come home [now]. So cold! Let me in your window...Kate Bush - Wuthering Heights (New Vocals)www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgyGe-lPI_QKate Bush-Wuthering Heightwww.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv0azq9GF_g"Cool... if you pause it at 1:05 then she becomes the devil."
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Post by tannis on Jun 30, 2008 19:38:02 GMT
Maybe, the young KaTe originally wrote "Out on the wi-ld, windy moors...", but changed 'wild' to the poetic 'wily' so as to personify the nature of the moors, giving them human-like characteristics. Or maybe the young KaTe originally wrote "Out on the windy-waily moors..." For the December 1980 Paul Gambaccini Radio Programme, KaTe selected "Oh Willow Waly" from the film The Innocents (1961) among her choice selection. The Innocents is, of course, the inspiration for KaTe's The Infant Kiss. And KaTe had seen the film years ago, when she was very young... Just as she had seen Wuthering Heights (1939)... And both films inspired KaTe to write spooky songs...Ooh, how he frightens me, When they whisper privately, Windy-waily, blows me...Playing at the amateur psychiatrist, I contemplate whether she writes songs from fiction out of fear about exposing too much of herself. KB: "Whenever I base something on a book or a film I don't take a direct copy. I don't steal it. I'll put it through my personal experiences, and in some cases it becomes a very strange mixture of complete fiction and very, very personal fears within me." Melody Maker, "Paranoia and Passion of the Kate Inside", 1980gaffa.org/reaching/i80_mm.htmlKB: "[ The Infant Kiss] was based on the film, The Innocents. I saw it years ago, when I was very young, and it scared me, and when films scare you as a kid, I think they really hang there. It's a beautiful film, quite extraordinary. This governess is supposed to look after these children, a little boy and a girl, and they are actually possessed by the spirits of the people who were in the house before. And they keep appearing to the children. It's really scary -- as scary on some levels as the idea of The Exorcist, and that terrified me. The idea of this young girl, speaking and behaving like she did was very disturbing, very distorted. But I quite like that song." Hot Press, "The Private Kate Bush", November 1985gaffa.org/reaching/i85_hp.html I: O.K., let's go on now to another song which sounds either traditional or child-oriented, because it's called 'Oh Willow Waly'. KB: "Well this track, um, this is really a novelty thing for me. There was a film called The Innocents, which I based a song on, on the new album--" I: Which one? KB: "Um, it's called 'The Infant Kiss'. But it's a remarkable film, very spooky. It's a Fifties English film, black-and-white, and it's about the possession of two children who this governess goes to stay with. And the whole film is very strange. She keeps seeing things, hearing things. Um, and she can't really work out if she's going mad or whether there is something very strange happening. And although this is never actually sung in the film, um, the theme music is from the film and it's sung by a lady called Ida Cameron. And she's got a beautiful voice, she sounds just like a little girl, and it's very haunting." I: Let's hear it then, or at least part of it. [An excerpt of this recording is played.] I: From the film The Innocents, 'Oh Willow Waly'. And as you say, it's the one that inspired you to write 'The Infant Kiss'. Very good, solid concept there about the possibilities of arousal and fear coming from the kiss from an infant. KB: "Yes. And I do think her voice is extraordinary." Paul Gambaccini Radio Programme, Part 1, December 30, 1980gaffa.org/reaching/ir80_pg1.htmlThe Innocents (1961) - Opening Creditswww.youtube.com/watch?v=IPUKQ_ejjp0&feature=related...'Oh Willow Waly', and notice also the Aerial birdsong!Oh Willow Waly George Auric/Paul Dehn
We lay my love and I, beneath the weeping willow. But now alone I lie and weep beside the tree. Singing "Oh willow waly" by the tree that weeps with me. Singing "Oh willow waly" till my lover returns to me. We lay my love and I beneath the weeping willow. But now alone I lie Oh willow I die, oh willow I die...KB: "The Infant Kiss. I don't know if anyone's seen a film called The Innocents, it initially inspired it. It's an old British film, a very haunting film about a governess who goes to stay and look after two children, a young boy and a young girl. And unknown to her, they're both possessed by the spirits that lived in the before, the gardener and a maid. And particularly the boy is in a very, very heavy possession state... like a thirty two year old man inside him as a spirit. And the governess will go to give him a little goodnight and he suddenly gives her a very big passionate kiss. And the song is about the woman being incredibly torn, she doesn't what's happening because there's this really sweet little boy that she loves maternally and yet through his eyes there's coming this really wicked, lusty man. And so she can't work out what's happening, she thinks she's going mad when in fact there is this terribly evil force in such a young child that could never have this experience through his own age. And so she's just freaking out saying 'my God, what's happening.'" I: Yeah. KB: "And it was a distortion that I myself would find terribly disturbing..." I: And me.. KB: "And I really love distortions." I: Yeah, so let's hear the track... Never For Ever Debut, Radio 1, Oct 11, 1980gaffa.org/reaching/ir80_r1.htmlKate Bush - The Infant Kiss (fan-made video)www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUTkdw4C0XA
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Post by ketman on Jul 1, 2008 13:35:55 GMT
Maybe, the young KaTe originally wrote "Out on the wi-ld, windy moors...", but changed 'wild' to the poetic 'wildly' or 'wily' so as to personify the nature of the moors, giving them human-like characteristics. The word I was talking about was not an adverb "wildly" - which wouldn't make sense - but an adjective, "wildy" (it's one letter shorter). In Gambo's interview, he says "O Willow Waley" is "either traditional or child-oriented", which Kate neither confirms nor denies. I listened to it on YouTube, thinking it might be a variant of the traditional folk song, "O Waly, Waly". But both its melody and its lyrics are quite different. And an internet search turns up nothing that doesn't lead straight back to The Innocents. I'm pretty sure "O Willow Waly" was composed especially for the film, and was intended to evoke the idea of a traditional song without actually being one. The only link - more like a pub-quiz "fact" - that I can come up with is that Benjamin Britten once made an arrangement of "O Waly Waly" for tenor and piano, and also wrote an opera called The Turn of the Screw, based on the same Henry James story that inspired The Innocents. But it's pure coincidence.
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